Evidence of meeting #132 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
You said in your remarks that analysts working for Russia had been asked to comment in traditional media venues, not just on social media platforms. You said that was one of the methods Russia used to engage in foreign interference, including in Canada. These are experts who are asked to talk about certain situations, like the war in Ukraine, and they're paid to spread the propaganda of the Russian government.
Can you give us their names?
Counsel, Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance
It's tough to give specific names without risking defamation. All we can do is talk about allegations and things we've heard, without providing a clear answer as would be the case in a court of law, say.
That said, there are definitely people spreading the Kremlin's messaging. Some have collaborated on articles posted on Russia Today, including a professor who was asked to testify as part of the public inquiry on foreign interference. He said we should pull back on aid for Ukraine and was spreading the Kremlin's narrative. His name is Paul Robinson. It's a matter of public record.
Those kinds of comments can be very dangerous when it comes to the Russian diaspora.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Understandably, Russia is interested in countries such as the United States, China, Germany and France, but let's be clear, Canada isn't a major world power.
What is Russia trying to achieve here? Generally speaking, what is its strategy?
Counsel, Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance
I can answer that question.
Maria can add something, if she feels the need to.
Canada is an important ally in many international alliances. Just think of NATO or the Five Eyes, an intelligence alliance that brings together five countries. Obviously, Canada is a very close partner of the United States.
It's not hard to imagine that hostile foreign actors—not just Russia, but also China and Iran—would want to gain access through the back door, so to speak, in order to undermine organizations like those that play an important role in international security.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Trudel and Mr. Sirois.
Mr. Green, go ahead for two and a half minutes.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
For my question, I'll go back to Dr. Tworek.
In the book you published in 2019, News from Germany: The Competition to Control World Communications, you uncovered how the Germans fought to regulate information at home and used new technology to magnify their powers abroad, showing that information warfare has existed for a long time. You referenced that in your opening statements. I recall the documentary on Edward Bernays called The Century of the Self, in terms of propaganda. This is an age-old political tool.
What lessons can we learn from history and draw on to find solutions to the current problems of disinformation and misinformation we face today?
Professor, History and Public Policy, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Thank you very much.
I think there is a whole host.
The first, as I said, is about looking broadly at international relations to try to predict which countries are going to engage in this. This is probably much cheaper than some other modes of foreign interference. We need to be on the lookout for that, using our international-relations hat.
The second is about being on the lookout for how new technologies get used. There are stories of the Germans seizing on a new technology, whereas others, like the British, were relying on older technologies and didn't see it coming to a certain extent. We need to be forward-thinking in that regard.
The third lesson is that there's a lot we can do. We're not powerless in this regard. We have faced similar situations before with new technology, so we shouldn't just throw up our hands and say, “The Internet and generative AI are unprecedented, so there's nothing we can do.” There's actually a lot that has precedent. We can look at examples of how we've tried to deal with this before, in order to see what's worked and what hasn't.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You mentioned that we need to be predicting which companies will use.... I'm sorry. It's “countries.” I slipped up. I said, “companies” because there are also a host of non-state actors.
Can you speak about ways non-state actors also use these tools online? I talked about the commodification of information, and you spoke a bit about data sovereignty. Could you speak more about that? Also, can you talk about how ubiquitous this is?
Really, I think it's safe to say that all countries are, in some way or another, accessing this type of disinformation tool.
Conservative
Professor, History and Public Policy, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
There are obviously a very small number of companies, so we need to pay attention to how they're making money—mainly through advertising—and think about how we might regulate that and what public options could look like, which is what we did in the past with radio and television.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
That concludes our panel for today. I want to thank everyone for appearing.
Professor, I understood you to say that you were going to supply the committee with a copy of a study you had done. Could you do that? I'll make sure the clerk follows up with you.
I want to thank the Alliance for being here. I understand that you've been very busy appearing before parliamentary committees over the last little while. Thank you for again for taking the time to come before our committee.
Mr. Boyd, thank you as well.
Before we go, I'm just about to publish Thursday's agenda.
Mr Bains, your witness will be here on Thursday. I apologize because the way it was formatted, we actually didn't see the name on the Excel spreadsheet, but it was there after we went back. I know you brought that up in the last meeting. He will be here on Thursday.
The other thing I have to mention to the committee as well is that the social media companies have agreed to come after the Thanksgiving break, which means that we would have to extend this study for another two meetings. Given the level of interest and, quite frankly, given the important information the committee has been provided by our witnesses, I'm going to propose that we extend this by another two meetings so that we have the social media companies. They include TikTok, Google and Meta. They're all coming the week after Thanksgiving.
Do do I have agreement among committee members?
Are you fine with that, Mr. Trudel?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
All right.
We're going to do that. We'll see everybody on Thursday. Thank you for all of your contributions.
To our witnesses, thank you on behalf of Canadians for being here today and providing us with some valuable information.
The meeting is adjourned.