Evidence of meeting #132 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Denis Beaudoin  Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superintendent Richard Baylin  Director General, Cybercrime and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Greg O'Hayon  Director General, Federal Policing Security Intelligence, Intelligence and International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Heidi Tworek  Professor, History and Public Policy, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Kenneth Boyd  Director of Education, CIVIX
Maria Kartasheva  Director, Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance
Guillaume Sirois  Counsel, Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 132 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 13, 2024, the committee is resuming its study on the impact of disinformation and of misinformation on the work of parliamentarians.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for the first hour today.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Richard Baylin, director general, cybercrime, and chief superintendent, federal policing, criminal operations.

Welcome.

We are also hearing from Denis Beaudoin, director general of national security and chief superintendent of federal policing.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Beaudoin.

We also have Greg O'Hayon, director general, federal policing security intelligence and international policing.

I want to welcome you, sir.

You have up to five minutes for an opening statement to address to the committee.

Mr. Beaudoin, you have the floor for five minutes.

C/Supt Denis Beaudoin Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Denis Beaudoin, and I am a chief superintendent and the director general responsible for foreign actor interference for the federal policing national security program at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, RCMP. I am joined today by Richard Baylin, chief superintendent of federal policing criminal operations on cybercrime, and Greg O'Hayon, director general of federal policing security intelligence.

First, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to discuss this issue. The malicious intrusion into Canada’s democratic processes by hostile foreign actors is one of the RCMP's highest priorities.

To be clear, foreign interference affects every aspect of society. This includes the very foundations of our democracy, the fundamental rights and values that define us as a society, our economic prosperity, the critical infrastructure essential to our well-being, and our sovereignty.

Foreign actors seek to advance their objectives through several tactics, including state-backed harassment and intimidation of communities in Canada, manipulating the discourse at every level of our political system, and using malicious and deceptive tactics to influence our democracy.

Make no mistake—foreign governments are conducting campaigns of online disinformation to undermine our democratic processes and institutions, as well as to erode citizens’ faith in democracy.

The RCMP has a broad mandate related to national security and cybercrime to ensure public safety by investigating, disrupting and preventing foreign interference. It draws upon provisions from various pieces of legislation, including those recently enacted in Bill C‑70, as well as other offences under the Criminal Code. When investigating disinformation campaigns, the RCMP works closely with domestic and international partners to identify relevant evidence but sometimes disinformation campaigns may not constitute criminal conduct.

With these considerations in mind, I will briefly summarize the RCMP’s role in contributing to the protection of Canada, its citizens, residents and elected officials from foreign interference activities.

In 2019, the Government of Canada announced its plan to protect democracy, to defend Canadian democratic institutions. This included measures to strengthen elections against various threats, including cyber threats and foreign interference. From the outset, the RCMP has been a committed contributor to these whole-of-government efforts.

Elected and public officials are central figures in our democracy's political system, as they shape our policies and laws. This role makes them key targets for foreign states, which may try to influence or coerce them to take policy positions that align with their interests. As such, the RCMP recently briefed parliamentarians, in partnership with other government agencies, on the threat of foreign interference. The RCMP is also leading initiatives to raise awareness with police forces across the country on the new legislation included in Bill C-70, as well as on the threat of foreign interference.

The RCMP is also an active member of the security and intelligence threats to elections task force—otherwise known as SITE—a working group that coordinates collection and analysis efforts concerning threats to Canada's federal election processes. This group is Canada's principal mechanism for monitoring threats of hostile state interference during elections and also consists of experts from CSIS, the CSE and Global Affairs Canada.

The RCMP's federal policing of cybercrime focuses investigative efforts on the highest level of cybercriminality and works closely with domestic and international partners to identify, disrupt and prosecute the most serious threats within the cybercrime ecosystem, which cause significant economic or other impacts to Canadian interests at home and abroad. The RCMP's federal policing cybercrime investigative teams and cyber liaison officers abroad focus on the prevention, enforcement and disruption of high-value threat actors and prolific cybercrime enablers who facilitate sophisticated crimes, such as malware, ransomware, espionage and foreign interference, as well as attacks against government institutions, key business assets and critical infrastructure of national importance.

As members of this committee are well aware, there has been an increase in threats to public officials in recent years. Because we recognize the personal impact of this trend, as well as the harm it causes to our democracy, this issue remains a key priority for the RCMP, and we will continue to counter these threats through our federal policing responsibilities, as well as through our engagement with other police forces and the diaspora communities.

With threats of this magnitude, collaboration between the public, the police of jurisdiction and the Government of Canada partners will continue to be an important aspect of protecting Canada against foreign interference.

The protection of Canada's democratic processes and the safety of its citizens and residents is paramount for the RCMP. It will be important for all aspects of society to work together to protect against foreign interference in this space.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Beaudoin.

I do want to thank the RCMP. Earlier this year, we, as a committee, had the opportunity to visit the academy in Ottawa, and through Deputy Commissioner Larkin, we got a pretty comprehensive briefing on the tools that are used for data extraction, for monitoring cybercrimes, etc., and foreign interference.

Were any of you at that session? No? Okay. Mr. Fisher was; I see his hand in the back.

We are going to start with our first round of questioning. It's six minutes on all sides; every party has six minutes. We are going to start with Mr. Barrett.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Barrett.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Is the RCMP adequately funded to address the cyber-threats that Canada faces?

Chief Superintendent Richard Baylin Director General, Cybercrime and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Criminal Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Last week, Deputy Commissioner Flynn, I think, said quite clearly that you wouldn't be able to talk to a chief of police anywhere in Canada and not hear that there would be an interest in discussion around resourcing. However, I can tell you that the RCMP does have cyber teams across the country. We have worked to staff these teams, to build teams, to build training and to adapt to the threats, and we do surge resources to that. I do believe that we are, at this time, able to work at a level of criminality that is representative of a threat, yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay.

Other police forces need more resources, but the RCMP does not. That is what I'm extrapolating from your answer.

Are you properly resourced to address the threats facing Canada? A quick yes or no would be great.

C/Supt Richard Baylin

It's worth having a discussion about resources, absolutely.

Yes, I'll say we are resourced, right now, to deal with the threat.

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay.

Could the government be doing more to deter foreign interference and protect Canadians from intimidation from hostile foreign states?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Denis Beaudoin

It's hard for the RCMP to comment on the government, Mr. Chair.

What we can say is that we welcome the new legislation, Bill C-70, which was recently enacted on August 19. We look forward to working with our partners at PPSC and testing this new legislation.

Your earlier question was on cybercrime, national security and foreign-actor interference. We received funding recently through the SIAMACT. Nonetheless, with the rise of violent extremism in Canada, it's certainly competing with our ability.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

What is operability like between the RCMP and CSEC when dealing with these types of issues? CSEC is self-described as being “responsible for foreign signals intelligence, cyber operations, and cyber security.” Is there a table that exists for addressing cyber-threats from hostile foreign states targeting Canadians?

I just need a very quick answer.

C/Supt Richard Baylin

The short answer is, yes, there is.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay. What is the name of that?

C/Supt Richard Baylin

It would be the NCRU, which is the national cybercrime coordination centre unit. There are a number of other committees and meetings that discuss threats as they occur.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

If a Canadian were targeted by a hostile foreign state—a state-sponsored malware or hacking attack that was intercepted by you or your partners at the CSEC table—how would that Canadian come to learn what had happened? Would you notify the individual that a foreign state targeted them?

C/Supt Richard Baylin

It depends on the nature of what was found and who found it.

That committee would be where a discussion would take place, and where deconfliction would take place. Then a decision would be made, going forward, as to the nature of that threat and how to deal with it.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Of course, we had an example where parliamentarians across party lines were targeted by a foreign state-sponsored attack—APT31. It was revealed earlier this year. The individuals targeted were all legislators. None were notified by anyone who sits at that table. It's interesting to know that the conversation took place. I understand that paper got shuffled over to the House of Commons. That gives cold comfort to the affected individuals and leaves other Canadians wondering what would happen to them if they were being targeted. Would they be informed, or do they have to depend on their employer being notified, then informing them? Should they wait for the FBI to let them know? That is what took place in this case. It's how Canadians came to know this had occurred.

There are a couple of issues federal policing is addressing right now—investigations into a few issues dealing with the government.

Are you able to provide us with an update on the investigation dealing with the $60-million ArriveCAN scam?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Denis Beaudoin

We're not going to comment on any investigation. Also, this is outside the national security portfolio, so I'm definitely not the right person to answer these questions.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Did he say that he's not able to answer the question? I can't hear what he's saying.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

That's what I heard.

Mr. Beaudoin, if you raise your voice a bit more, it would be helpful.

I'm having a tough time hearing, but he did say that, Mr. Barrett.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Denis Beaudoin

I apologize.

The only thing I said is that we're not going to comment on any investigation. This one is outside of my responsibility, so I'm certainly not the right person to get these questions directed at him.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Housefather, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, guys, for coming.

Is the RCMP investigating right now as to whether there are foreign countries that are involved in the university encampments that happened last year, the protests that are happening to glorify terrorism and glorify Iran and what Samidoun is doing? Are you investigating this?

4 p.m.

Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Denis Beaudoin

Again, we're not going to be able to comment on any specific investigation today.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I'm not you asking to comment. I'm asking if you're looking into it.

4 p.m.

Director General, National Security and Chief Superintendent, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Denis Beaudoin

Well, you're asking me to comment on investigations, and I've just explained that we're not going to be able to provide any details on investigations today.