Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[Kenneth Boyd]

As you mentioned, there is potentially, or inevitably, going to be some lag time in these kinds of cases, but I think that points to the need to approach these problems from multiple angles. In terms of Canadian citizens having the ability to help identify when information is false or misleading, that would be something that can help fill the gap before there is action taken by any sort of federal agency.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Let's build on that.

I'm sorry. Mr. Sirois has something to add here.

Thank you.

[Guillaume Sirois, Counsel, Russian Canadian Democratic Alliance]

Russian propaganda, especially, has been an issue for a very long time, for at least a decade or maybe more. We've learned through the Foreign Interference Commission today that the strategy to address this foreign interference is at a nascent stage. This is a very long delay to address a national security issue like foreign interference. We've seen the consequences of that with the Tenet Media operation. Had we had a strategy sooner—for instance, after the 2016 interference during the presidential election—maybe we wouldn't be here today talking again about foreign interference.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I certainly agree with you, Mr. Sirois. If I have to be candid—which I believe I should be in these committees and in Parliament generally—I have seen a lack of political will to address this head on. Frankly, that falls at the feet of the government. I've said this at just about every committee meeting we've had. We have 11 people who have wittingly or semi-wittingly, according to our security forces, worked with hostile foreign states.

You talk about confronting this and confronting it early. I believe the term you used was “a nascent stage”. This is information that we know that our security forces know, but that we, as Canadians, don't know. We've asked so many times of our security apparatuses, yet it feels like we get no further information.

Is that just not completely the opposite of the approach we should be taking of shining the light, shining it brightly and shining it early?

[Guillaume Sirois]

I think we both agree that transparency is the key to answering to foreign propaganda, such as the Russian interference we're discussing today. Transparency allows for the beginning of the conversation on how we can address this issue. If we don't know what the government is doing behind closed doors, we cannot have a proper discussion about what it should be doing or about what the government is doing wrong.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Ms. Kartasheva, you mentioned something at the beginning that caught my ears, that you were sentenced to seven years in jail in Russia in absentia.

Do you want to talk about that? This is your time if you want to discuss that, any of the impacts of that and what other people in your position go through. Feel free. The floor is yours.

[Maria Kartasheva]

The worst part for me was that I didn't receive support from Canada in time. I received it later, after I managed to get media attention. For months, I was struggling to get any attention, even from my MP. She apologized later because apparently there was some mistake on her assistant's part. For months, I felt completely abandoned by Canada, and I'm very worried that this might happen to someone else.

In short, what happened is that I had my citizenship application being processed at the time when I was sentenced in Russia. First, I was obviously arrested; then I was sentenced. I informed IRCC about this, which IRCC basically ignored, and my first citizenship ceremony was cancelled. Then I received a letter half a year later saying that I might not become a citizen because I'm a criminal in Russia.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Just so that's it's clear to me: You got something from IRCC saying—

[Maria Kartasheva]

It was half a year later. I wrote to them several times, asking if there was any progress. They said that they were reviewing my case and that everything was fine. Then they sent me a letter saying that I had a month to send them all the documents that I might want to provide. They sent the letter to me at the beginning of December, just so you understand. It was months, and it was the holidays. No one was responding to my requests to send me any documents. It was a not a great time. Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. The worst part of my job is having to cut off somebody who's telling their story.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm sorry.

Perhaps one of my Liberal colleagues will allow you to continue, because I think this is worthy of hearing.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Let's see if Mr. Bains will take you up on that offer.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Yes, I will, if you want to continue.

[Maria Kartasheva]

Basically, my biggest issue and the fear of my colleagues in the organization and a lot of Russian citizens in Canada is that they will have problems in Canada when their citizenship or other immigration documents are processed, and that if they were persecuted in Russia, it will affect their stay in Canada. The biggest fear I had was that I would be deported. I had to live with that fear every day for a month, because I didn't know how this would end.

Again, no one apologized to me. I don't know why this happened. Maybe there is someone in IRCC who was interested in stopping me from becoming a Canadian citizen. Maybe there was someone there who wanted to get me back to Russia to end up in prison. I don't know. There was no investigation, to my knowledge, and I don't know if there would be any investigation.

I created a petition to prevent these cases from happening, by making a list of foreign laws that would not be preventing people from becoming citizens or getting visas, and IRCC responded that their system is perfectly fine and is working in the interests of people like me. You might be the judges of that, because I don't agree. I feel gaslighted by IRCC and, I guess, by the Minister of Immigration, and I'm not happy with that.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you for sharing. I apologize on behalf of the government. I wish there were some resolution that we could find. Some recommendations that you've made right now are on record, and they will be looked at and reviewed for sure, and maybe we can look at your case further.

I'll continue with you and Mr. Sirois, please.

Could you share with us what are the most common platforms or channels through which you believe Russian disinformation is being spread in Canada now? I know there's a long history of it. Quite frankly, we've heard from several experts in this matter that Russia was like the originator of this kind of almost like modern-day warfare, an information warfare.

Could you tell us what you know or what you monitor today with respect to which platforms or channels are being used right now?

[Maria Kartasheva]

It depends on what kind of public they're targeting.

For younger people, that would be Telegram. For older people, maybe, or people who are not very confident with Telegram, there's Facebook. You can see so many bots on Facebook spreading Russian propaganda, and you can tell that those are not real people because they don't post anything else.

There are also Canadian Canadians, right, or immigrants in Canada from other countries. That would be other different media or also experts and professors in universities in Canada who spread Russian propaganda and visit Russia on obviously Kremlin-sponsored trips and then tell how great everything is in Russia and on occupied territories. Then they tour Canada and spread this information among Canadians.

There are definitely several strategies they use for different groups of people, but I can tell that those are working.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Primarily it's bots that are being used.

[Maria Kartasheva]

I think this is one—

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Is that the primary operational tool?

[Maria Kartasheva]

It's one of the tools they use, but certainly it's not the only one.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

I'd like to go to Mr. Boyd quickly, if I have some time here.

Just today, there were reports of TikTok being sued by more than a dozen attorneys general in the United States who are alleging the following:

...the social media platform is misleading the public about its safety. The app, they say, is harming children's mental health, with some kids getting injured or even dying because of TikTok's viral “challenges”.

Do you have the capacity to monitor trends on TikTok or other platforms? I know that other youth-based platforms that are used could impact young people.

[Kenneth Boyd]

We do keep a general track of what kinds of platforms are being most used by young people. We conduct surveys with teachers and students from across the country to learn about their digital media habits.

Certainly, TikTok is still one of the major platforms that is being used by young people. That is something that we are aware of. A lot of times when we use examples of the kinds of misinformation and disinformation that young people might come across, we use examples from TikTok and give students the ability to try to verify and see what's actually true and what's not in the platform.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Boyd.

Thank you, Mr. Bains. I appreciate that you allowed your time to be used for Ms. Kartasheva to conclude the story.

Mr. Trudel, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your story is very moving, Ms. Kartasheva. It's actually quite troubling. I hope the government will follow up to get to the bottom of what happened, because it's outrageous.

You said in your remarks that analysts working for Russia were asked to comment in traditional media venues.

Can you give us names?

[Maria Kartasheva]

I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?