Evidence of meeting #138 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
November 5th, 2024 / 5:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Barrett.
I now go to Mrs. Shanahan.
Go ahead for six minutes.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I want to return to the question of lobbyist registration, Madame Bélanger, in particular with the case of Jenni Byrne + Associates. It's clear that Jenni Byrne was a registered lobbyist with her firm prior to Pierre Poilievre becoming the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. Within days of that happening, this new company, Forecheck Strategies, was registered, and employees from the Jenni Byrne company were working for Forecheck. Per the website of Forecheck and the website of Jenni Byrne, there was still some confusion or an omission of registration of employees. As a result of some excellent reporting work by the media, questions were asked, and then Jenni Byrne's photo was taken down. Changes were made to the two websites in question and the registration following those questions.
You know, I think that's the definition of setting up a shell company, but we're not here to talk about that. I think we understand that the real issue is the influence that somebody can have working as a lobbyist, whether they're registered or not. They're working with private companies and then have an influence on politicians formulating policy and so on.
Reports indicate that Ms. Byrne does indeed attend regular caucus meetings, meetings that are typically reserved for Conservative MPs—and senators, apparently; I think the Conservatives still have their senators with them—and their Conservative staff. Ms. Byrne, apparently, is actively participating in morning strategy calls within the opposition leader's office.
In situations like this, I think we have seen, in other cases, individuals actually consulting with the officer of Parliament in question for advice. Has Ms. Byrne ever consulted your office for advice on this matter, on her change in roles?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Whether Ms. Byrne consulted my office or not, I will not confirm. Many people call our office for advice, and it's confidential advice. If lobbyists are lobbying and are not registered, I look into it. If they're not lobbying, then they don't need to be registered, and the matter ends there.
I review everything. As I have stated before, this is a matter that I continue to review, and I will not comment any further on it.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
It is very illuminating, because it does seem that people change roles, and it does not always happen in a very transparent fashion.
Is this something that your office would advise on if asked?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Obviously, if any of you leave your office, you're subject to some rules. Once you leave office, you're subject to the prohibition on lobbying, so of course I would advise you on it. When people change jobs, when people actually participate in your political activities, then they ask me if they can lobby you, so we do get a lot of questions about their role: when they can communicate and how the code of conduct applies.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you for that.
Could you elaborate on that advice, when a lobbyist is becoming a political staffer, for example?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
For someone who is a lobbyist and who leaves their function as lobbyist and become a political staffer, it's a constitutional right to participate in partisan political activities, so individuals can do that. Should they choose to come back to being a lobbyist afterwards, then there will be rules in place. I will tell them at that time that they need to call me back because there will likely be a cooling-off period so that they can't lobby certain individuals because there clearly would be a sense of obligation. It's very much on a case-by-case basis.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I thank you for that.
Do you think that there are gaps in the current legislation around lobbying and that there are indeed loopholes that people are taking advantage of?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There are a few. I would love to come back and chat with you any time about that. For sure, there's the threshold. There is the spectrum of sanctions. We can talk about directing minds, about volunteers and about the post-employment restriction. If any of you leave, you can't lobby as a consultant. You can lobby for a corporation for up to 20% of your work, but you can't lobby for an organization.
There are some bizarre rules in the Lobbying Act that need to be fixed, absolutely—hence the need to look at the Lobbying Act and make changes, not just review but make changes.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
I think we'll leave it at that.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much.
I’m going to turn to you, Ms. Bélanger.
Thank you for your thoroughness in bringing forth these issues. This is very important, even if you tell my colleagues opposite what they can do next year, after the election. But I won’t tell you about Jenni Byrne or Mark Carney.
We’ve heard a lot from Ms. Maynard about the need for independence. What would you have to say about that?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Independence is important. It's important financially. It's important for our positions so that we're not influenced, so that we have integrity, so that we don't allow ourselves to be influenced by what's going on. We are listening, we are reviewing the files, but our decisions are based on integrity. We make decisions based on our laws and the facts before us.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
People write to us on all kinds of subjects, and someone wrote to me the other day saying that your term shouldn't be renewed because, according to him, you didn't investigate nine violations of the Lobbying Act that had been referred to the RCMP.
So I'd like to hear what you have to say about that.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
You and members of the Senate, not public opinion, will decide whether or not to renew my term. I personally review all the files that are before me with rigour.
With regard to the nine offences you’re referring to, I have no idea who and what your correspondent is talking about. As soon as there's reasonable doubt that an offence has been committed, I refer the matter to the RCMP. I sent sixteen files to them. So I take that seriously.
I can say that among the files I sent to the RCMP, the degree of seriousness of the offences varied. Sometimes it was a person who didn't file a communication report. If there's an offence, I refer the matter to the RCMP. However, I'd like to have the discretion to determine whether I should make a public report, instead of sending the matter to the RCMP, because some offences are more serious than others. Currently, any potential violations that I see are referred to the RCMP.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It's either black or white.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Absolutely.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
For example, if I refer to WE, Facebook, SNC-Lavalin, or something like that—that’s what was brought up—do you remember those files? Why would you, apparently, have neglected to investigate those files?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
First of all, I don’t want to talk about those issues.
