Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I think that makes more sense. I think it's kind of illogical otherwise.

I leave it to you, Mr. Chair, but if we have a date, like the last date that was proposed before we were amending the motion, and we pass the motion today, obviously we've missed the date.

We don't know where they are. What happens on December 10? Do we stop looking again?

I'm just having a friendly talk with my colleagues about saying that it would be within seven days of the date—whatever the date is—that the summons would be delivered to them. Then the chair can decide what the right day would be.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Well, if it's at the chair's discretion—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

To address that as well, it is the best practice to specify the date on which the appearance is to take place. However, in the notes I have here, it's also acceptable to say at a date determined by the chair in consultation with the vice-chairs—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

We could do that to give you the flexibility and so that we don't have to pass another motion if we don't find them by the 10th.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, Mr. Housefather. I really do.

Can you bear with me for a second? I'm going to consult the clerk for a second.

What I'm going to suggest, Mr. Housefather—and I am in agreement with your assessment here—is that if you want to move an amendment that reflects what I just said, we will make our best effort to contact them. If you want to leave it at the discretion of the chair, I think that is a workable solution.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Again, I'm fine with that. It means there's a summons and that you set a date when you find these guys. I'm totally fine if you do that, Mr. Chair, in consultation with the vice-chairs. That's perfect with me.

Yes, if I could offer a friendly amendment to do that, it would great.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to just go back to the clerk for a second.

Let me now go to Mr. Caputo, because it's his amendment we're dealing with.

Based on the discussion that we just had, I'd have to go back to Mr. Caputo and ask, if he's in agreement with this, if he would withdraw his amendment, and then we can deal with Mr. Housefather's subamendment as the amendment. We're actually not specifying a date. We're leaving it at the discretion of the chair, and of course we're going to make our best efforts to contact them.

It wouldn't change the motion in any way, with the exception of.... It would still allow the committee to “summons Felix Papineau and Shawna Parker to testify before this committee”. It would strike “on December 10” and it would then say “at a date determined by the chair in consultation with the vice-chairs and the NDP”. Then it would continue on to say, “provided that the chair and clerk be directed to retain, if necessary, the services of a skip tracer to assist with the service of the summonses.”

To me, that is a reasonable solution.

Mr. Caputo, I'm going to leave it to you, sir.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes, I will withdraw my amendment, on Mr. Housefather's agreement to move the amendment that you just outlined.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

I'm hoping that we have some clarity on what I just talked about. Effectively, the amendment has been withdrawn.

We have this amendment on the floor. I will open the—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is on the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes, Mr. Green, it's on the amendment. I see your hand. Go ahead.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do appreciate the goodwill that's going around to try to get to the bottom of this. I'll just reiterate that the minister has stepped down and GHI is no longer on the list.

This is an important study for us to continue. What I will say is that I have no intention of being part of a Standing Order 106 or a chair's directive to be pulled back to this committee for some kind of faux urgent meeting over the holidays because somebody wants to get in a news cycle. I want to be very clear about that.

I'm not in the room. I know this is a made-for-Netflix miniseries that we've been a part of for the last few months, but I have no intention of revisiting these witnesses as secondary bit players in this drama from now until we return on a regular sitting day.

I would also say that just in terms of the order of operations, just on the face value of it, I would agree—although it doesn't happen often—with Mrs. Shanahan that there doesn't seem to be a need to go ahead and call the skip tracers or the bailiffs or Dog the Bounty Hunter, or whatever the hell you want to call it here, in advance of actually having the summons go out. I do think that's a tad bit dramatic. I know that my friend Mr. Barrett has a flair for dramatics, but I would say that on the face value of the committee work that we have done, a summons would be appropriate.

Should there be a reluctance or a refusal, I want to know through you, Mr. Chair, at what point do we enact this Dog the Bounty Hunter clause, and who decides?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Look, as I think I said before, Mr. Green, there are lots of avenues that we're going to go down before we get to that point. I can tell you, and you know this, that the clerk has made a significant effort to try to contact them.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

There are tools at our disposal, including the parliamentary law clerk and the Sergeant-at-Arms. We are going to utilize those tools that are available and maximize those to the extent that we need to in order to contact these two people and have them come before the committee.

I expect that the skip tracer part of this is something that we'll keep in our hip pocket in the event that it's needed after we've exhausted all of the other avenues.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, then, in closing, I would say this.

If you're out there and you're watching this right now, Shawna Parker and Felix Papineau, I would strongly urge you to come to this committee and not make a mockery out of the House of Commons and our standing committees by trying to duck this committee. You do have a duty and a responsibility to report to the House of Commons when you're summonsed. I'll just go ahead and put that out there as a preliminary. Otherwise, you may have Dog the Bounty Hunter knocking on your door and serving you with an official summons. I just think that's way too dramatic for what we're dealing with.

Those are my comments. I have no plans on seeing any of you over the holidays. This issue is important, but it's not urgent.

With that, I'll support whatever amendments come out of committee. Notwithstanding the fact that I think the flair for dramatics on the skip tracer is a bit much, we'll humour it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

December 24 is out of the question, Mr. Green, if I'm hearing you correctly, for a meeting of the ethics committee.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

December 23, 22 and all the way until the last day we're here, until we're supposed to be back.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

Mr. Barrett, go ahead on the amendment, please, sir.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Just to speak to Mr. Green's comments, I guess I would say that with respect to dramatics, the pop culture icon Skip Tracer Randy, who is another “other” Randy, eventually became a bounty hunter. Though I don't say that we need a bounty hunter, I think it's important that we do reflect that some of the real drama that comes from Skip Tracer Randy comes from his introduction to us as a bounty hunter.

I'll leave it to Mr. Green and colleagues to look into that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm not even sure we have bounty hunters in Canada.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Caputo, a former Crown prosecutor, just confirmed that.

We are on the amendment. I don't see any other discussion.

Do we have agreement on the amendment proposed by Mr. Housefather?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

On the main motion as amended, are we good?

Go ahead, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

In view of Mr. Green's comments, which I appreciate, I want to suggest that we remove the reference to the skip tracer, because it is a secondary step. I think we have enough here in the motion without adding that. As you said yourself, Chair, it's in your back pocket.

I move the following amendment: Delete the line “provided that the chair and clerk be directed to retain, if necessary, the services of a skip tracer to assist with the service of the summonses.”

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I have an amendment by Mrs. Shanahan to remove everything after “December 10, 2024”.