Evidence of meeting #142 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hamel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay, thank you.
Ms. Bednar, conceptually, is Uber a responsible actor in society?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
It's a big question about Uber. Is it a responsible innovator?
I do appreciate that these fees specifically, which could be junk-ish, are transparent in terms of the fact that they exist and people see that there's a fee. However, I do not think that there's transparency in terms of precisely where that fee goes, how it's calculated or why it seems to be so volatile. To my mind, that lack of transparency can be irresponsible.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
On a societal level, is Uber a good thing or a bad thing?
I'll clarify my question. The fact that there is a demand for a platform like Uber doesn't necessarily justify the company exploiting a market, employees or contract workers.
That's the gist of my question.
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
You're right. Sometimes we take the fact that people engage with a company as their wholehearted endorsement of it.
We see that people, of course, want convenience. People want to get around town. People want to order takeout; it's delicious. They want to maybe splurge. I've splurged on having my groceries delivered, because I have a toddler at home.
However, do people want pricing to be transparent, firms to be accountable and the workers who are bringing their items to them to have a wage floor or have access to benefits? They probably do, so that is part of the conversation we're having today.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
If you had to make three recommendations to the committee so that it could then report back, what would they be?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
If I were to make three recommendations, I would suggest that the provinces revisit capping the commission on grocery delivery as a policy tool that we have, maintaining that there is some subset, but maybe 30% is too high. I would ask that the determinants of the algorithm that control the access to work be far more transparent. I would encourage other provinces to consider trying to implement the kind of wage floor that we are seeing pioneered in Ontario and British Columbia, though it does not seem as if it is fully working as effectively as we hoped quite yet.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
People like the Uber platform because of its convenience. It may be practical, but if the public were better informed about the pricing structure, for example, about the fact that drivers don't receive much, do you think that would have an impact on Uber's business model?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
I do. Apps of all kinds influence pricing. This kind of microcalibration is increasingly pervasive in the economy. There was a great story this June; a whole issue of a magazine called The American Prospect focused on this. Even apps like the Taco Bell app know that I get paid every other Friday and my gordita is going to be more expensive that day.
I don't think that reflects our values as a society. The larger worry here, outside of this particular case study, is that we are moving toward an era where that sticker price doesn't really exist and where we're all getting different prices for different products and services. I do not think that's a future we want.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Do you believe that Uber is following the broad trend that Professor Shoshana Zuboff calls “surveillance capitalism”?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
I think that Uber is part of a fascinating moment where, in the realm of big data and what we could learn from numbers and how we could influence them, we saw the growth of this technology and increasingly sophisticated algorithms. That's been fascinating and that's been important in a lot of ways. However, in terms of how and when these algorithmic tools are deployed and who they are accountable to, these are rules set by private actors in their favour, ultimately.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Is it normal for the Uber platform not to be subject to the European privacy directive? I'm not sure of the answer Mr. Hamel gave earlier.
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
On Canadian soil, the best possible privacy legislation we have is probably what applies, though I recognize there are higher standards elsewhere. Even better is informing people. Having informed consent doesn't necessarily change the data practices of firms. This fundamentally seems to be what people are revolting against and resent the more they build a literacy and become familiar with this.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
My main concern is that Uber has a ton of data. It's a legitimate question as to whether that data is protected.
If there were a data leak, there would be considerable consequences for individuals in terms of surveillance. That poses a clear risk.
What do you think?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
There are cybersecurity and privacy risks, but I think those concerns are almost secondary to the real foundation, which is how information is used—both that we volunteer and what is extracted or collected from around us. We've heard that this data is not sold, but access to this data is. Ads, specials and offers targeted especially at you in an app are ways these platforms facilitate advertising through the information they have, and similar microtargeting.
I feel I'm using a lot of jargon unintentionally. I apologize for that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Bednar and Monsieur Villemure.
Mr. Green, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I think it's like a lot of things. I recall being a city councillor when Uber first came in and disrupted what I would call a “taxi cartel” in Hamilton, quite frankly, the way plates and licences were distributed. It disrupted that market and drove it into a bit of a frenzy, and it has found a bunch of ways to circumvent local laws, bylaws and licensing around transportation.
Ms. Bednar, you spoke about digital public infrastructure, and I'm really stuck on that. Can you talk about the way this could be a remedy that would allow for the scenario I suggested to Mr. Wedge, where the people who provide the value—the workers—get the greatest return for that work? Is it about co-ops, or is there a way for government or state interventions to level the playing field for what is otherwise a deeply exploitative technology?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
There are alternative business models that are being experimented with and that we've seen success with. You already mentioned one in terms of the co-operative element.
I think we need to stop acting surprised when the private sector doesn't act in the public interest. If we're going to be a society, moving forward, that sees delivery, rides and drives as part of this, we need to think together about how we want to facilitate that, and whether we want it to veer towards a private monopoly.
You were mentioning reports coming out. Was it from the City of Toronto, or a proposal for the City of Toronto? I'm going to get it incorrect. It's looking back at that kind of digital medallion system and suggesting the capping of that supply. To me, we're actually reinventing the taxi system, perhaps. If one of the problems we're talking about here is supply and demand—if there's an oversupply of drivers, which then depreciates the rate—one of those potential policy proposals could be that workers agree to limit this.
It is my understanding that, sometimes, these programs also try to penalize you if they understand, through your using the same phone, that you are driving for two competing companies. That also removes agency and the kind of mobility we might expect these people to have by choosing to be their own worker.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I know we did—at least, my colleagues did—a decent job trying to get answers out of the PR person from Uber, but we haven't talked about Amazon. Quite frankly, when you look at logistics and the gig economy, Amazon plays a huge role in this new evolution of work.
We heard the story from Mr. Wedge about the newcomer. I think it would be a surprise to no one around the table that very pressing issues are temporary foreign workers and international students. Having a low barrier to entry is very good. People who want to work can show up and work. However, they can do so with little oversight, regulation or verification, quite frankly. If they're contractors, I would imagine Uber probably doesn't even check the legality of whether they're able to work.
However, I digress. The point is, what should we be learning from this moment, in terms of the labour market and the ways in which these technologies can exploit workers, such as pitting worker against worker by flooding a certain market and driving down the compensation for drivers?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
In terms of barriers to entry for entry-level work or certain types of work, there was an experiment in the U.S. I can't remember the fast food outlet—and I'm cognizant that I keep mentioning fast food; I might be hungry—but they said, “Actually, applying to work with us is going to become a lottery. If you meet this threshold, we believe we can train you. We don't need to go through all these other extra elements.” I think that is actually a reflection of a learning of some of these entry points.
However, let's go back to the datafication of work, using computer programs to push workers in particular ways. I don't think that Amazon delivery drivers are urinating in bottles or defecating in the back of their truck for fun. They are doing that because they are under pressure, severe pressure, to make a certain number of deliveries in a certain amount of time. We've seen Amazon invent glasses that they can wear—that they might be mandated to wear—that can shave seconds off each delivery by telling them in their lens exactly where to go.
Now, you could argue that that's good business, that that's efficiency and that that's productivity, and you could also look at the stress and the health effects of that work.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I would call it techno-fascism, but those are my words, not yours.
The reason it's important to look at the ways in which people can be exploited.... In previous studies, it became very apparent that AI had biases that were baked in, biases around gender, race and demographics.
From your subject matter expertise and experience, is there a scenario—Mr. Wedge talked about the newcomer—where people are exploited because they show certain demographic markers that might make them more susceptible or more vulnerable to taking lower rates than in what otherwise would be a blind pricing system?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
Yes, it's possible to imagine that occurring, just as with the quest or the gamification of work that you were mentioning.
We've heard from workers that it seems like, if there's an incentive to do 40 drives in 24 hours, then the closer you get to 40, the harder it can be to find work. Therefore, there's a feeling that there's a lack of transparency or almost an exploitation with those incentives as well.
That has implications for fairness, transparency, trust, stress and the relationship that people have with these.... I call them computer programs because I worry sometimes that when we use the phrasing “algorithmic”, it makes it seem so much fancier than it really is.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I certainly appreciate your being here.
I wish we got more answers out of the Uber representative. I would digress and say that, in future scenarios where we don't get direct answers, I want folks to know that I'll be moving motions to pull the president in. If the president doesn't have answers, then we have another problem, but sending PR people to these committees, quite frankly, wastes our time. I'm just going to say that on the record.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
I appreciate that, Mr. Green.
That concludes those six-minute rounds.
I'm going to leave it to the will of the committee.
Ms. Khalid, I know you have a question that you'd like to ask, so go ahead, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Mr. Chair, I know that we are short on time, so I'm wondering if it's possible for us to submit written questions to the witnesses so that we can get some written responses to our questions. Would that be okay?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
That's fine.
I'm not sure we're short on time, but I understand that Ms. Bednar and Mr. Wedge have flights to catch this evening. We did start 40 minutes late, so if the committee members want to submit some questions, they can submit them to the clerk and we'll make sure that we distribute them to the appropriate people for a response.