Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Philippe Dufresne]

One of the things we've seen this summer, and we've done this with international partners and partners in Canada, is what we call a "privacy sweep". This year, we did it not only with privacy authorities but also with competition authorities. We looked at what we call "deceptive design practices", which are practices where an organization is going to use tools to manipulate users into making choices that are not in their interest.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In that report, did you find some of these platforms to be more egregious in their use than others?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Sadly, what we found was that 97% of the organizations and sites that we looked at—and we looked at a lot of them—had at least one of those bad practices, in terms of having language that's not clear—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Getting back to comparators—I want to focus on that for a moment—obviously we have lots of platforms, with all of them having very similar business models in how they advertise, profile and understand the end-user. Yet, TikTok was singled out and banned from this country without, I would argue, a real full public disclosure.

Do you believe that it's important for the public to fully understand the impacts on their privacy by their use of these platforms? Additionally, given the fact that TikTok has been banned, do you think the government has a duty to report back to the public as to why?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I think transparency is important. The more the public can understand the decisions of the government and the decisions of my office, the better. There may be some limits in terms of confidentiality, but certainly this is important.

We initiated this investigation vis-à-vis TikTok in particular because of the large number of younger users on the platform. That is a strategic priority that we have. We're moving forward on that and hoping that our conclusions on that will be beneficial to others who may have similar practices.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Mr. Caputo, you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here again. I'm a relative newcomer to this committee. It feels like this is a bit of a regular occurrence.

Commissioner, I want to pick up from where Mr. Green left off. You said that younger users are targeted, which I found interesting. It seems to me that social media generally targets young users period. I think we can agree on that, right?

[Philippe Dufresne]

It targets all users. I don't think I said it targeted younger users. There's a high number of younger users.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's right. Those were my words. You said it was a higher number.

You have several issues with privacy. You have issues with privacy that are contemporaneous with use. Then you have issues with privacy that exist regardless of whether someone uses this—tombstone information and that type of thing.

Do you get what I mean by that?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Obviously, younger users become older users. Would the concerns not be the same across social media platforms that would apply despite the fact that TikTok is targeting younger users?

[Philippe Dufresne]

We've made the protection of children's privacy one of our priorities. That's something that's shared internationally. We did it recently with the G7 counterparts. We issued a statement about building AI with the best interest of the child at heart. There will be some different considerations. We called for stronger privacy protections for younger users—for instance, for stronger rights to the deletion of information that might have been posted as a child. That's what I meant when I said that children have the right to be children. If you hold them to the same level of accountability as adults, because you're leaving things forever, that's a challenge.

We're looking at that. We're looking at making sure that the lens of children's best interest is always there and that those privacy protections are stronger by default.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

To the best of your knowledge, where is the data for TikTok stored?

[Philippe Dufresne]

This is getting into factual questions. We're investigating that. I can't be speaking on those things at this time.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. It seems to me that this would be part of the transparency that I would hope we see. I didn't think that was a question in dispute. Obviously, it may well be, so I'll pivot to the issue of transparency.

My colleague Mr. Cooper spoke about the failings of the government. As I understand it, there are two parallel issues. You have the government winding up the TikTok business entity in Canada, and then you have a related issue with your investigation. As I understand what you said to Mr. Cooper, you are not privy to the Government of Canada's rationale, I guess, for winding up TikTok. Is that correct?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Not beyond the public statement.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You said, if I understood you correctly, that you would be completing your investigation notwithstanding whatever the Government of Canada has decided. Is that right?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Yes. We're moving forward with our investigation. Again, whatever information we may need or obtain in the meantime, we would do that, and we would finalize the investigation. Then those findings and the full rationale will be made public at that time.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

At the conclusion of your investigation, which you've done independently of the government's rationale, wouldn't it make sense to go to the government and determine what...and the reason why to further inform your decisions in order to determine whether further investigation is required? It's almost as though you're operating in a vacuum with maybe 70% of the information.

[Philippe Dufresne]

Right. Again, I think this would be part of the decisions we make in the context of that investigation. If we decide, well, we'll reach out to X to obtain this information and to inform our findings, that may occur, and then we would make that public at the end of the investigation, once it's concluded.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You may actually reach out to the government to determine the rationale.

[Philippe Dufresne]

What I'm saying is that I'm not confirming the investigative steps that we've taken in the past or that we would take in the future. The investigation is ongoing. We want to conclude it as soon as possible and have those findings for Canadians.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I understand that, sir.

I'm just trying to probe the depths of the investigation, especially as it relates to national security. It would seem that would be a necessary step. I'm not trying to challenge or suggest your investigation won't be fulsome. I'm saying that it seems to me that the national security element and the privacy element really would at least potentially go hand in hand.

I'll leave it at that.

[Philippe Dufresne]

I understand. I'm just saying that IU am very limited in what I can say about the conduct of the investigation as it's under way.