Evidence of meeting #144 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
We are moving along. I'm not calling for more powers in terms of enforcement during the investigation. I'm calling for more powers at the end of the investigation.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
I'm calling for order-making powers. If I find a breach of the law, it would be to order an organization to comply with my findings. I'm not calling for powers of investigation; we have those powers already in the law.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Then why call for them after if you're claiming you already have them within the law?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
We have sufficient powers in the law to do our investigations, but once the investigation is completed, if I find that the law was not complied with, I don't have the authority to order the organization, for instance, to stop doing something to change its privacy practice. That's the challenge.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green. That concludes our first round. We're going to start our five-minute round now with Mr. Cooper.
Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Commissioner, you had indicated that your office learned about the government's decision to order the closing of TikTok's Canadian subsidiary, TikTok Technology Canada, at the same time the public found out about that. Is that correct?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
That's correct.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Has the government provided your office with any further information since that time?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
No, not that I'm aware of. Perhaps at the staff level—I could confirm that—but I don't think so.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Okay, thank you for that.
We have a rather interesting situation insofar as the government has proceeded to shut down TikTok's subsidiary. They have withheld from Canadians the rationale for doing so, citing national security risks, which they claim are so severe these can't be shared with the public and, evidently, can't be shared with your office.
Has your office attempted to acquire further information as to the rationale for this that might be pertinent and informative to your investigation?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
No, not at this stage. We're focused on concluding our investigation.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Do you not see that there might be information that could potentially be relevant?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
At this stage, we're content with the process of our investigation.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Okay, thank you for that.
Going back to my point, we have the government saying, “We're shutting the office down. We have national security concerns. These concerns are so serious we can't inform the public.” It sounds as if the government isn't that interested in sharing anything with your office, but at the same time, it's "so serious" that Canadians can continue to use TikTok. I would submit that it doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense.
I guess when you look at the concerns the government has that have been identified, I would submit there are legitimate concerns about the fact that TikTok, being owned by ByteDance, a Chinese company, could theoretically be required to turn over data and other personal information of Canadians to the Beijing-based regime.
In that regard, I would note that article 77 of China's cybersecurity law ensures that data is collected and stored in China and that, when Beijing's Ministry of Public Security so orders, the data must be handed over, period, and so that theoretical concern is there.
Do you have any evidence that it is, in fact, happening? TikTok came before this committee and was absolutely adamant that such information has not been shared with the Beijing regime.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Again, this is an area where I can't venture because we are currently investigating. If it comes up, this is something we would indicate in our final report.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you for that.
Shutting down the subsidiary of TikTok doesn't change the fact that Canadians are vulnerable to such information being shared with the Beijing-based regime, does it?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
The app continues to be available, and Canadians continue to use it.
Conservative
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada
Courts have found that Canadian law will still apply if Canadians are using it, even if you don't have a—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Yes, but as you noted, Canadian law still applies where there is a reasonable and substantial connection, but as you also said, your enforcement powers and the ability of Canadian courts to enforce matters and decisions don't exist, for all intents and purposes, in the country of China, which is controlled by the Beijing-based communist regime.
Again, my point—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
—with that preamble is simply that this hasn't changed a thing from the standpoint of protecting the privacy of Canadians, but what it has done is muddy the waters in a considerable way.
The government has been completely lacking in transparency, and it's completely unacceptable.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Cooper.
We'll go to Ms. Shanahan for five minutes. Go ahead, please