Evidence of meeting #17 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was use.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
At this point are you considering that, or is that something that should be happening at the police force until this technology is examined further?
4:20 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
I don't believe so.
This is how we've approached this with our AI/ML policies. There's a balance of goods around this. There's a social good around public security and safety against privacy and human rights challenges with the technology.
The question is, when do we deploy this technology? For us, it's only in major crimes and major cases. We're not using this technology broadly. We're using it where there's a significant benefit to public safety around the identification of individuals who are involved in violent crime.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Boudreau again, the Privacy Commissioner said that the database of faces that Clearview AI created for the RCMP was an illegal compilation and violated the Privacy Act.
Has the member of the RCMP who authorized this illegal activity been reprimanded in any way?
4:20 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No. If we look at the results of the Office of the Privacy Commissioner and what the commissioner stated, we do not agree with the full findings of the Privacy Commissioner. However, we do fully support all of the guidance that's been provided and recommendations to the organization.
The RCMP has stood up, since the report, a new program called the national technology onboarding program that looks at all new technologies from a legal, ethical and privacy perspective. It's not just facial recognition, but any new technology that may have privacy or legal implications.
The RCMP believes that the use of facial recognition must be targeted, time-limited and subject to verification by trained experts. Further, facial recognition should not be used to confirm an identity, but rather only be considered as an investigational aid where the results must be confirmed, again, by human intervention.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
That's good for the first six-minute round.
Mr. Fergus, you have six minutes. Go ahead.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to jump in and pick up on a question that Mr. Williams just asked.
Mr. Boudreau, you responded that the RCMP no longer uses facial recognition in its operations. Can you confirm that this is the case?
4:20 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. If you look at the technologies such as Clearview AI, you see that the RCMP is not using any new or advanced facial recognition technologies. The RCMP inherently has used facial recognition as part of our processes in the past. We can look at mug shots and those types of activities, but facial recognition technology, per se, we are not.... As part of the review from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner, we did an exhaustive survey across the organization to try to discover any new facial recognition technologies that are being used. We provided those results to the Office of the Privacy Commissioner to—
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Mr. Boudreau, I apologize for interrupting you. Your answer seemed quite categorical, but I'm thinking about the Project Arachnid platform, which uses a form of facial recognition to identify victims of child pornography. Is this true or am I wrong?
4:25 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. Project Arachnid actually runs out of the C3P program, not out of the RCMP. They do use facial recognition technology. We do work with partners such as C3P with regard to child exploitation, but that is not an RCMP-led activity.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
That raises another question, Mr. Boudreau. Are there any other RCMP partners using facial recognition?
4:25 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
There may be. I am not aware of other technologies out there. The one with Project Arachnid is significant because of its profile dealing with child sexual exploitation, and we have a strong working relationship with C3P. Outside of that, I am not aware of other technologies being used by the organization.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Mr. Boudreau, could you please check with your colleagues, list all your partners who use facial recognition, and provide that information in writing to the clerk of our committee?
4:25 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, that can be achieved.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Mr. Boudreau.
My next question would be for the Toronto Police Service and whoever would like to answer this question.
Again, in a similar sentiment to Mr. Williams, I'd like to know if you could provide us in writing—if they exist—the policies that you use to determine when you would or would not use facial recognition technologies. Would that be possible, or would you be able to give me a quick, one-minute summary in terms of some of the guiding principles that you use?
4:25 p.m.
Dr. Dubi Kanengisser Senior Advisor, Strategic Analysis and Governance, Toronto Police Services Board
Mr. Chair, I could respond to that.
Along with my opening remarks, I also submitted the Toronto Police Services Board's recently approved policy on the use of AI. That also encompasses any use of facial recognition. Anything that uses facial recognition or other biometrics is considered high-risk technology and therefore will require considerable reviews in advance of adoption and deployment, and a follow-up over at least two years to examine any impact, including any unintended consequences.
You should have a copy of that with you. It details all the different aspects that are looked into, the concerns and the guiding principles in deciding whether or not a certain technology may or may not be approved. That includes issues of fairness and reliability and the legality of that use, as well as the requirement that there always be a human in the loop, and personal and organizational accountability for its use.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
I see that Mr. Stairs has an additional comment to make on that, but I'd like to ask a question to both of you because my time is running down.
We all recognize, it seems to me today, the limitations of this technology. What recourse does the public have to ensure that their images are indeed...especially for members of the community and people of colour? What are their rights in terms of how you assess the efficacy of the use of facial recognition technologies?
4:25 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
I'm just going to respond to the first question.
We can supply the Forensic Identification Services policy on facial recognition and what qualifies for that. There's a fairly stringent set of criteria, and we can supply those separately.
In terms of rights, we're operating under the Identification of Criminals Act, so we're only using images from mug shots, essentially from arrests and processing, and so there is no use.... Obviously, Clearview was a blip in that. There is no use of publicly sourced facial images for our facial recognition program.
4:30 p.m.
A voice
If I may add to that, Mr. Chair?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
We're considerably over Mr. Fergus' time, so I'm going to have to go next to Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Kanengisser, could you briefly weigh up the pros and cons of the use of facial recognition, from the point of view of the freedoms concerned?
4:30 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Strategic Analysis and Governance, Toronto Police Services Board
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, through you, it's hard to discuss very broadly the issue of facial recognition without the context of the particular use. There are definitely many concerns that you've heard throughout these discussions. There is also the obvious benefit of successfully cracking cases and identifying victims and rescuing them in cases of abuse. I don't think I can give a clear answer without a specific context.
The policy the board approved recently was really setting the groundwork for having these discussions and requiring the service to provide a business case, basically, and a justification that would prove they are effectively balancing the risks with the benefits and are mitigating those risks in a way that minimizes any kinds of impacts on privacy and freedoms.
April 28th, 2022 / 4:30 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Of course, we recognize that there are advantages and disadvantages.
What came out of the public consultations you held recently? What were the concerns of participants?
4:30 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Strategic Analysis and Governance, Toronto Police Services Board
There were two kinds of concerns. Well, there are a few concerns, but I think the greatest ones had to do, as we've discussed here earlier, with the misidentification of individuals and also from the contrary side where the technology is effective with basically mass surveillance and unreasonable levels of surveillance over people just going about their business. Both of these concerns were important. The ability of a person to go around town and not be followed around using artificial intelligence and facial recognition technologies is something that we are concerned about, and this is something that will be prevented through our policy.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Is the use of facial recognition more about increasing security, or a feeling of security?