Evidence of meeting #19 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was frt.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
In the absence of regulation in Canada, at this time, is Microsoft under contract with any Canadian government agency, security, surveillance or intelligence agency?
4:25 p.m.
Director, Responsible Artificial Intelligence Public Policy, Microsoft
Did you ask if Google or Microsoft...? Sorry.
4:25 p.m.
Director, Responsible Artificial Intelligence Public Policy, Microsoft
Not to my knowledge, no, not that I'm aware of—not with facial recognition in Canada.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
So you don't work with any government agencies, security agencies, military organizations or surveillance agencies.
4:25 p.m.
Director, Responsible Artificial Intelligence Public Policy, Microsoft
To my knowledge, we're not.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Do you trade in data? I am talking about both buying and selling them.
4:25 p.m.
Director, Responsible Artificial Intelligence Public Policy, Microsoft
Not in relation to facial recognition, necessarily. We wouldn't sell any data we're using in relation to our facial recognition systems. That would be my answer.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
We'll go next to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes. After that, we will have another round, just to be clear. We'll make sure we have a full hour with these witnesses.
Go ahead, Mr. Green, for two and a half minutes.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
Through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Larter, I alluded to this, but I want to make sure that there's 100% clarity in my ask.
Mr. Larter, I'm asking you and requesting that for the purpose of this study in this committee, you provide this committee with a list of all contracts, both present and past, related to our public safety—government-related, military-related, law enforcement and police agencies in Canada—given that you were unable to provide that testimony here today. Do you understand that request?
4:25 p.m.
Director, Responsible Artificial Intelligence Public Policy, Microsoft
I do. To my knowledge, we don't have any contracts to that effect, but I understand the request.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much. I do appreciate that.
Through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Farooq, I believe I heard in your opening comments, Mr. Farooq, some talk around legislative reforms. I want to underscore my perception of where we're at in this country with testimony we've heard previously from our other guest witness and ask if you have contemplated within your submission, with specificity, different ways in which we can tighten up our framework to ensure that we have knowledge of the use, that we have accountability of the use and that it's done in a way that is in accordance with our charter rights.
I'm just wondering if you can expand on any of your earlier comments about some of the legislative improvements you feel we should make.
4:25 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
Absolutely, and thank you for this very important question.
We will provide a longer exploration in a brief submission, but what I would say in general is, first of all, that I think the banning of real-time FRT in places like airports and our borders is important as we think about a general categorization.
In terms of investigative tools, while we're calling for a moratorium until these policies are developed, we think the set-up should be very similar to how it works when the police are trying to obtain any search warrant: that they appear before a judge and they put forward their argument and their best-case scenario, with clear documentation, which is then provided to the public. We'll provide specific submissions on the sections and subsections that we think need to be amended.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I apologize that I'm not with you guys in person today. I'm dealing with overland flooding in the riding, and in my own yard.
First I want to direct my questions to Mr. Farooq and Mr. Mohammad. I want to drill down deeper, because as we go forward in this regulatory process, I want to make sure that we check all the boxes of which legislation we need to focus in on.
You've already mentioned CSIS and the RCMP. You've also talked about the Criminal Code amendments that are going to have to happen, as well as Privacy Act and PIPEDA. I know that under national defence, the CSE is mainly listening in on online chatter. Maybe it has the formula we need, because for it to listen to any Canadian or to any of our Five Eyes allies, it can't do indirectly what you're not allowed to do directly. It has to get warrants or ministerial authorizations for issues surrounding national security and national defence.
Is that what you're suggesting are the steps we need to take to ensure the charter rights of Canadians are protected?
4:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
First of all, we're all hoping that you're doing okay and that your neighbours and everyone else are doing okay.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
There's a lot of water around here, I can tell you that.
4:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
Generally, if the question is whether we think that as it has been legislatively set out, the standards for obtaining warrants should be similarly applied to FRT in investigative contexts, then there are a couple of slight nuances that need to be done. Generally, the answer is yes, there should be a judicial—
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
The nuances come in to some extent when looking at section 8, search and seizure. There would be a bundle of evidence that would go before a judge. That's where things would kick into play.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Some of the testimony that we've heard from policing agencies was that Clearview AI was doing a lot of the facial recognition technology for police agencies across Canada, including the RCMP and the CBSA. They are no longer using it, because Clearview said that it no longer is offering the service to Canadian agencies.
However, have you ever heard of IntelCenter Check? It also has FRT, and I'm under the impression that it may have contracts with the RCMP, and potentially CSIS.
4:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, National Council of Canadian Muslims
I've heard just what's public, what's been published publicly about them, but I've no specific knowledge.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
We're looking at checks and balances, so first of all we're talking about charter rights and making sure that the legislation covers that through numerous different statutes that we're going to have to amend. The issue comes down to the built-in bias, as many of our colleagues have alluded to, that everything was always developed around facial recognition with white faces, so brown and black faces are seeing a lot of discrepancies and inaccuracies. As has been suggested by different intel companies, police agencies are going to put more human interaction into that process.
Would that satisfy the concerns that your community and others may have here in Canada?