Evidence of meeting #20 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
I'm not aware of Project Arachnid, other than the discussion in this committee. I wouldn't be surprised if one of our speciality teams has some relationship to it.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much. I will give the rest of my time to Mr. Bezan.
May 9th, 2022 / 12:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To follow up on the quality of the answers we've been getting, they seem to be intentionally evasive from some of the witnesses. I remind witnesses that at committee, you can be held in contempt of Parliament if you aren't fully co-operating or are it is found that you haven't been fully co-operating. I'll take your counsel on this, Mr. Chair, that we'll allow the witnesses' testimony to stand.
Based on some of the conversations we've had in the past, potentially we need to have a more senior member of the RCMP here, such as Commissioner Lucki herself. That is something we should consider.
I also want to reiterate that the documents that have been requested by committee members should be provided by June 1 so that we can take them into consideration in doing our work on this study.
I want to go back to IntelCenter Check.
The witnesses were saying they haven't heard about it before, yet IntelCenter advertises this product as terrorist facial recognition technology software, using open-source images of terrorists from the Internet and the RCMP in its procurement documents. That suggests that not only is the RCMP using it, but possibly CSIS and possibly the Department of National Defence.
As has been said before, we can't do indirectly what we're prohibited from doing directly under charter rights in surveilling Canadians. To the RCMP, are you using any FRT technology other than Clearview, which is right now not available in Canada? Again, there is the issue around the IntelCenter database FRT.
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I can comment on the IntelCenter software services. This software was acquired on an internal trial basis only. It was not tested or used in any national security investigation or other operational capacity.
In March 2018, it was identified that the IntelCenter service software was not approved for operational use, and its use by E Division was discontinued.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
My question is to the RCMP. We've had a considerable number of witnesses come in and talk about how many agencies are using FRTs. At a previous committee, Mr. Boudreau said that the RCMP does not use any new FRTs.
Which old FRTs do you use, and do you share the data gathered with any provincial agencies?
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
We do not use any FRTs. The only one that was used was Clearview, which was stopped in July 2020.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
We heard last week from the National Council of Canadian Muslims that police agencies, specifically in British Columbia, have been using FRTs at rallies, gatherings or protests. Is there any evidence of that?
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I cannot speak to other police forces and jurisdictions, but I know that we do not and have not.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I'm not aware of any, no.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
If we're talking about transparency, how can the RCMP ensure greater transparency around its use of artificial intelligence technology, such as facial recognition software, going forward? How can we learn more about these FRTs and transparency within the RCMP?
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
You asked two questions. They're about the past and the future.
In the past, Paul Boudreau, my superior, queried all the detachments and RCMP units across the country, and he responded accordingly.
Moving to the future, all of that process would be through the NTOP process. Any software being asked about to be used across Canada by the RCMP needs to go through that NTOP process. If it's allowed, we would. If they say no, we don't. In that process, there's a privacy assessment as well. We will only use what is approved by the NTOP process.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I'm sorry. It's NTOP.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
12:10 p.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Maybe Roch Séguin can speak to that, as he manages that portfolio.
12:10 p.m.
Director, Strategic Services Branch, Technical Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Good afternoon. It's the national technology onboarding program, whereby all technology leveraged for operational or investigation purposes will be assessed from a privacy, ethical, bias and legal perspective before being deployed in operations anywhere.
From a public awareness and transparency piece, it is built in as part of our communications strategy to relieve the categories of technology that the RCMP will be leveraging in the future.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I'll go to the Toronto Police Service. I'm going to ask the same question.
Regarding what we heard from our National Council of Canadian Muslims, have police authorities reached out to them about reservations they might have about FRT technology?
12:15 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
We've had an open consultation around our policy and will have another around our procedure, but we have not reached out specifically to that group or community.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Could you comment on their statements regarding the fact that police agencies have been using FRTs at rallies and gatherings?
12:15 p.m.
Chief Information Officer, Toronto Police Service
I don't believe that's the case. I'd have to understand what they're alleging to be able to investigate that or hand it off to someone who could investigate it.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
They said that police agencies have been using FRTs at, let's say, common gatherings, a protest on an issue, or a community rally on something. They said that police have been surveilling those rallies and using FRTs.
