Evidence of meeting #20 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Let's be frank, sir.
Are you familiar with the duty of candour within the body of law, that information must be—
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Not as you describe it.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—presented completely, accurately, fairly and fully.
Is this not something you are familiar with?
For instance, when you're seeking to get a warrant, sir, are you not aware that as an RCMP officer, when you're presenting evidence for a warrant ex parte, you must present it even if it casts a negative light on you and that you would still have to present it? Are you familiar with that principle?
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I'm familiar with the principles we take before the court to obtain warrants.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Would you not agree that even in the testing technology, your officers who were testing celebrities and other people, invariably using this technology, would have drawn in facial profiles from hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who are under no lawful investigation?
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Unfortunately, we did not have a policy in place at the time. Now we have NTOP to identify those risks and needs.
At that time—
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Director Sage, am I hearing in your testimony today that any ground-level investigator can, either through procurement...?
What we're hearing in other services, quite frankly, is that they're using trial services, trial subscriptions, on AI and different types of technology to test their capabilities, because there aren't existing frameworks in place.
Is that what you're suggesting here today?
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I'm saying that at the time the licence was obtained, the policy wasn't in effect and that any members on the ground were able to obtain licences as they saw fit.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
When you're overseeing your investigators and they're bringing a new technology forward, at what point in time do they have to do a charter compliance analysis?
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
Since I've started, we are doing that with NTOP as we speak, and anything that comes forward, any technology—
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Did that not happen before?
Sir, previously, that didn't happen before you.
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
No, it didn't.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You're suggesting that in the RCMP, when they're bringing in a new technology, and this isn't a small thing.... I'll use another example.
Has the RCMP ever engaged in the use of Pegasus NSO?
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
I do not know that program.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Are you aware of any scenarios...?
I want to make sure that I get this on the record.
In a previous question, my friend from the Bloc asked for those documents. In those documents, are you prepared to provide us with the name of the person who signed the licence in advance of receiving those documents? That wouldn't be anything that would be subject to any kind of solicitor-client privilege.
11:25 a.m.
C/Supt Gordon Sage
As André Boileau indicated, if we are able to provide it, we will.
11:25 a.m.
Officer in Charge, National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No, sir, I did not.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Mr. Boileau, did the investigating officer who contracted Clearview report to you?
11:25 a.m.
Officer in Charge, National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No, he did not.
11:25 a.m.
Officer in Charge, National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
He reported to an RCMP member who has since retired.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
11:25 a.m.
Officer in Charge, National Child Exploitation Crime Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
At this point, and again because, as I mentioned earlier, we do have some lawsuits, so I'm not sure to what extent we can share—
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
If we went in camera...
Mr. Boileau, if it helps you, we're talking about the duty of candour. This is a parliamentary committee that you're before. There have been instances in these committees when we have asked witnesses to swear an oath. Are you aware of the seriousness of the committee in which you're testifying today?