Information & Ethics Committee on July 26th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 29th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee is meeting at the request of members to discuss their request to undertake a study of device investigation tools used by the RCMP.

Interpretation is available, as you all know. We don't have any witnesses. I think all of you know how this all works, so I'll dispense with the rest of it and proceed to Monsieur Villemure, who, as I understand from the letter, has a motion that he would like us to entertain.

With that, I will give the floor to Monsieur Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to introduce a motion, which reads as follows:

That the committee undertake a study of at least 4 meetings beginning no later than Monday, August 8th, 2022 to determine and identify which “device investigation tools” are being used by the RCMP, which have technological capabilities similar to Pegasus, and provide the committee with the name(s) of such software and the terms and conditions of its use; That the committee request, by Thursday, August 4, 2022, that the RCMP provide a list of warrants obtained, if any, for each use of such software, as well as the scope of the warrants and the reasons for the monitoring; That the committee also request, by Thursday, August 4, 2022, a list of warrants or any other information related to the wiretapping of Members of Parliament, Parliamentary Assistants or any other employee of the Parliament of Canada; That, to this end, the witness list for this study include, but not be limited to: RCMP officers who have decided on the use of “device investigation tools” or any other surveillance tools; The Minister of Public Safety; The current and former Privacy Commissioners of Canada; Ms. Sharon Polsky, Privacy Specialist, Privacy & Access Council on Canada; And that any additional witness lists be submitted to the Clerk of the committee within 7 days of the adoption of this motion; And that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House by September 19, 2022.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Is there discussion?

Iqra, go ahead.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

My apologies, but it's been a long time since I used these headphones. I'm wondering if Monsieur Villemure would be kind enough to also read out the motion in English just so we have it on record and in case there are any interpretation glitches.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Before I ask Monsieur Villemure if he would care to do so, I note this is a bilingual committee and members are not obliged to read their motions in both languages. Using either language is an acceptable way to present a motion, so his motion as read is in order. It was actually circulated in the letter and was orally translated just now. I don't want us to go down a road where we ask committee members to translate their own work.

René, I'll leave it up to you, but I would discourage this as a general practice.

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

On that point, I'd say that would be a dangerous practice to undertake, because I'd hate to have to read a motion in both English and French, knowing that my French capabilities are extremely limited. I think it's a dangerous precedent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I could see on my screen that Mrs. Shanahan was trying to get my attention. I would encourage members to please use the “raise hand” feature on Zoom. It's much easier for me as chair to do it that way.

I did see you waving so go ahead, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Just as a technical point of order, there's a lot of background noise. I didn't do a sound check either. I don't know if it's timely to do so now. It could avoid future problems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

If there's a lag between the disconnection of my microphone, that would likely create some feedback. I hope everybody's audio is good now. If anybody is having trouble understanding me in either language, please let me know now.

Mrs. Shanahan, you came through loud and clear. I was listening to you in English. I presume there was no translation problem. I would like to get to the substance of this. If there are problems, by all means identify them, but I don't want to go looking for them. With respect to the translation as well, if a problem has been identified, let us know. I'd like to continue with the meeting.

I see you have your hand up again, Mrs. Shanahan. Would you like to speak to the motion?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes, I would indeed.

I would like to take this opportunity, Chair, to read out the motion, as I have it in English, and that the record be corrected if it's not the proper wording. The motion that Mr. Villemure has put before this committee is:

That the committee undertake a study of at least 4 meetings beginning no later than Monday, August 8, 2022 to determine and identify which “device investigation tools” are being used by the RCMP, which have technological capabilities similar to Pegasus, and provide the committee with the name(s) of such software and the terms and conditions of its use;

That the committee request, by Thursday, August 4, 2022, that the RCMP provide a list of warrants obtained, if any, for each use of such software, as well as the scope of the warrants and the reasons for the monitoring;

That the committee also request, by Thursday, August 4, 2022, a list of warrants or any other information related to the wiretapping of Members of Parliament, Parliamentary Assistants or any other employee of the Parliament of Canada;

That, to this end, the witness list for the study include but not be limited to: RCMP officers who have decided on the use of “device investigation tools” or any other surveillance tools; the Minister of Public Safety; the current and former Privacy Commissioners of Canada; Ms. Sharon Polsky, Privacy Specialist, Privacy & Access Council of Canada; And that any additional witness lists be submitted to the Clerk of the committee within 7 days of the adoption of this motion; And that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House by September 19, 2022.

Chair, I would like to ask the clerk to confirm that it is indeed the English translation of this motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Yes, that indeed is correct. Thank you.

Monsieur Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm wondering what the purpose of that exercise is, given that we have all received the motion in writing, in advance, in both languages. I don't see the need for that exercise, unless it's an attempt to find a nit to pick somewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, may I answer?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

It's somewhat rhetorical, but go ahead, Mrs. Shanahan, if you care to answer.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I just want to reassure my colleague.

In other committees, we have seen in the past that the translation was not accurate. It is perfectly reasonable, then, to engage in a little exercise when beginning the study of a motion to make sure it is understood properly, and mainly to make sure that the two versions of the motion are the same.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Okay. Thank you.

Is there any discussion on the motion itself?

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Chair, I'm wondering if Monsieur Villemure could walk us through the intent of the motion, the purpose and the dates as proposed, as part of the discussion on the main motion. On our side, the Liberals have had discussions with all parties, and all parties know that we will be potentially moving three amendments. I would like to start this conversation by understanding Monsieur Villemure's objectives with this motion, if that's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Monsieur Villemure, you're welcome to address Ms. Khalid's questions if you'd like.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have not received any amendments. Ms. Khalid and I had a discussion on Friday, but I have not received any amendments officially.

Nonetheless, the motion arises out of a series of articles in the press and questions that were asked, and responded to, in the House of Commons that raised doubts concerning unauthorized surveillance by the RCMP of members of the public and parliamentarians.

Committee members and regular participants know that I am not someone who engages in witch hunts. However, I believe that privacy is a fundamental matter, and in fact, it's something that the government strongly supports. This motion is not partisan; it is in the public interest.

Given this kind of doubt regarding such an important subject, I think it is worthwhile to get to the bottom of things and put the question directly to the people involved. Was the Pegasus software used or not, and if so, how and for what purposes?

For context, I should point out that Pegasus is Israeli software used by a number of countries for conducting surveillance. The software has a dubious reputation in several respects.

When the journalist asked the RCMP whether it used Pegasus, the force replied that it used a program that had device investigation tools. The expression “device investigation tools” was not a direct answer to the question. That was not the question asked. I therefore want an opportunity to put the question directly: Is that the case, and if so, what is the situation?

However, we have to be clear on why we are doing this study. The purpose of this motion is to make sure that the RCMP is complying with best practices in this area and, if that is not the case, to provide the force with best practices, by way of policies, so that we can continue to trust our national police force.

So that's the background to the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

Next I have Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Chair, I listened with great interest to the points being made by Monsieur Villemure and indeed there are concerns. We have heard about them. I was a member of this committee previously, so I know there have been concerns in the past. I do congratulate the committee on proceeding with the facial recognition study. I haven't followed it very closely, but I look forward to the report on that study. That's very important work for this committee.

I fail to understand some of the requests in this motion, notably the request for the Minister of Public Safety to appear. I'm well aware, having served on other committees, that there is operational independence. The Minister of Public Safety's role is unique in that the agencies overseen by the Minister of Public Safety do not directly report. There is operational independence—I think we are familiar with that term—so this would not be pertinent.

From what I can see, there isn't any information the Minister of Public Safety can offer us. I'm new to the committee this session, but I do think having the Minister of Public Safety here for this inquiry is not relevant.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Next I have Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank our colleague Mr. Villemure for coming forward with this motion and requesting this emergency meeting, which we as Conservative members supported.

This is an issue that I think we need to delve into. When you look at this Pegasus malware, it's not just a hacking application. This software also is spyware. It has the ability to turn on our microphones on our smart phones and turn on our cameras to spy on us and others. We know that the RCMP are saying that they have used it in the traditional sense of the wiretap, but this goes way beyond any wiretapping technology that's existed until the advent of Pegasus. We know there's other software out there as well.

I think it is inherent upon us as committee members to dig into this, to see how the RCMP has been using it, and to even look at what other police agencies are doing with this type of technology across Canada and elsewhere. One thing that is concerning is whether or not it has been used against us as members of Parliament, to monitor us and to listen in to our conversations, and knowing whether or not the places we meet that aren't public are now being shared amongst people with malicious intent. I think we have to consider all those avenues.

To go to Ms. Shanahan's comment about the Minister of Public Safety , I think ultimately the RCMP have to report to the Minister of Public Safety. When we're dealing in new technology that goes beyond the scope of what we have available under rules and regulations and legislation that we have as a country, then the Minister of Public Safety would be informed, I would have hoped, on what type of technologies are being used by the national police force.

Having the Minister of Public Safety appear to give testimony to committee, to explain what the government does or does not know, is important to the overall work that we want to undertake. We need to know how this has been deployed across government agencies as well. It comes down to the Minister of Public Safety being responsible for it. Is CSE under national defence making use of this technology? Is it being deployed not only against adversaries, but also against our own citizens and us as national legislators, or even provincial and municipal politicians?

We need to take a harder look at this. I think the sooner we get started, the better. We can do this over a short period of time, with multiple meetings per day or a couple of days. We should be able to get through all of these witnesses and not take up a lot of the summer and the time that we're spending in our constituencies right now, especially since this is the first summer back in our ridings since the mandates ended, which is allowing us to get out to our community events and meet with our constituents face to face.

I will be supporting this. I'm not too crazy about making any major amendments to the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Ms. Brière, the floor is yours.