Evidence of meeting #30 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Philippe Dufresne  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Gregory Smolynec  Deputy Commissioner, Policy and Promotion Sector, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, July 26, 2022, the committee is meeting to study device investigation tools used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House Order of Thursday, June 23, 2022.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. Members on Zoom, please use the "raise hand" function.

The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I will introduce our witnesses for this panel this morning. We have with us from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Philippe Dufresne, Privacy Commissioner of Canada; and Gregory Smolynec, deputy commissioner, policy and promotion sector.

We will now begin the opening remarks. The floor is yours.

Take it away, Commissioner Dufresne.

11 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I'm sorry, there's a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

11 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

When the hammer drops, there are supposed to be no cameras in the room.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Correct, thank you. I think we have co-operation there.

With that, take it away, Commissioner.

11 a.m.

Philippe Dufresne Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Good morning Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I am pleased to be here today to assist the committee in its study of the device investigation tools used by the RCMP. I am accompanied by my colleague Gregory Smolynec, deputy commissioner, policy and promotion branch.

This study follows media reports and a response to a question on the Order Paper confirming that the RCMP was using technical tools to obtain data covertly and remotely from targeted devices, subject to judicial authorization. The response and media reports also indicated that the RCMP had not consulted my office prior to using these tools.

As you know, as the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, I am responsible for the protection and promotion of the privacy rights of Canadians in the public and private sectors. My office does so by investigating complaints, providing advice to government departments and private sector organizations, reporting publicly on compliance with privacy laws, and promoting public awareness of privacy issues.

When I appeared before you in June to discuss my proposed appointment as Privacy Commissioner, I indicated that I would have as my vision the following three elements: privacy as a fundamental right; privacy in support of the public interest; and privacy as an accelerator of Canadians' trust in their institutions and in their participation as digital citizens.

Applying these elements to the committee’s study generally, I would say the following.

Privacy as a fundamental right means that all institutions, including the RCMP, should have privacy as a key consideration when designing and deciding to use any technology that could have adverse impacts on the privacy of Canadians.

Privacy in support of the public interest means that by considering privacy impacts at the front end and by consulting with my office, organizations can prevent privacy harms at the outset and indeed improve the tools that will be used to further the public interest, whether it be the prevention of crime, the protection of national security, or the advancement of Canada’s competitiveness. Privacy and the public interest go hand in hand, they build on and strengthen each other and Canadians and their institutions should not have to choose between one or the other.

Privacy as an accelerator of Canadians’ trust in their institutions and in their participation as digital citizens means that when organizations such as the RCMP consider privacy impacts at the front end and are seen to be doing so, this generates trust and reassures Canadians about the necessity of the tools and the measures put in place to mitigate privacy impacts and ensure proportionality between the measures and the objectives.

In terms of specific background to your study, I would start by saying that the Privacy Act does not require the RCMP or any government institution to prepare privacy impact assessments, or PIAs, for my consideration, but the Treasury Board requires it in its policies. I hope to see this included as a binding legal obligation in a modernized version of the Privacy Act.

As you know, the RCMP recently indicated that it had put in place a program to use on‑device investigative tools, or ODITs, and other methods to obtain data covertly and remotely from targeted devices. The RCMP confirmed that these tools could collect private communications such as texts and emails sent or received from the device, documents and media files stored on the device, as well as sounds within range of the device and images viewable by the cameras built into the device.

The RCMP has also stated that the use of these tools is subject to judicial authorization. My office was not informed of, or consulted on, this program prior to its implementation or since. After learning about this through the media in late June, we contacted the RCMP for more information, and the RCMP has since scheduled a demonstration for my officials in late August. In its response to the question on the Order Paper, the RCMP indicated that it began drafting a PIA in relation to these tools in 2021, but we have not yet seen it.

Once we receive the PIA, we will review it to ensure that it includes a meaningful assessment of the program's privacy compliance and measures to mitigate privacy risks. We will also review it to ensure that any privacy-invasive programs or activities are legally authorized and necessary to meet a specific need, and that the intrusion on privacy caused by the program or activity is proportionate to the public interest at stake. This would require the RCMP to consider whether there is a less privacy-intrusive way of achieving the same objective. If we find shortcomings in terms of privacy protections, we will provide the RCMP with our recommendations. We would expect them to make the necessary changes.

In conclusion, I would reiterate my hope that the timely preparation of PIAs be made a legal requirement in a modernized version of the Privacy Act. Doing so would recognize privacy as a fundamental right, support the public interest and generate necessary trust in our institutions, such as the RCMP, who are doing vital and important work for all Canadians.

I would now be happy to answer your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Thank you.

For the first round of questions we have Mr. Kurek.

You have up to six minutes. Go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, and congratulations. I know that the last time you were before this committee, it was expected that you would be appointed, so congratulations on that appointment. I'm sure it's been a busy summer for you.

You referenced in your opening remarks how one of your priorities as commissioner is viewing “privacy as a fundamental right”. Certainly, with the Order Paper question, there were some concerns about the way the RCMP and the government approached the procurement of this software. I'm wondering if I could hear your opinion on whether or not you would see the government sharing your opinion that privacy is a fundamental right in the way this process seems to have been carried out.

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

I know that the Department of Justice has issued a paper recommending proposed modifications to the Privacy Act in a modernized version, as this committee has done as well. One of those goes to the preamble and strengthening the language in the preamble to highlight the fundamental importance of privacy to the dignity and rights of Canadians.

What I would say is that seeing this as a fundamental right, all institutions should have it as top of mind. It should be a culture of privacy. It should be privacy by design so that when thinking of new tools, new public interest opportunities, priority is given to considering the impacts on privacy.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I found it interesting when you shared a little bit of the timeline regarding the RCMP's response to basically being called out on this with this Order Paper question and the revelations. Do you find it suspect or curious that it was only after having this information go public that it seems they would have been more forthcoming with their privacy obligations?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

What I will say is that the impact of this type of information coming out in the public through media reports or questions can raise questions and can raise concerns. I think from a trust standpoint and generating confidence, it would be far preferable that privacy impact assessments be done at the front end, that my office be consulted, and that this can be conveyed somehow to Canadians so that they are reassured that there are institutions there, such as my office, to provide advice and to make sure that privacy is top of mind.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Just to clarify, especially when it comes to law enforcement, we have heard, and I'm sure we will hear, about the operational realities of an investigation. Does your office have protocols in place to make sure that things like investigations and the integrity of those things could be protected?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

When we work with organizations, we ensure that the information is treated appropriately in terms of confidentiality and security. From my standpoint, as I stated, privacy is not an obstacle to the public interest. They go hand in hand. They strengthen each other.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

I know that your office and a number of the other offices that report to this committee do some proactive work to look at how government is fielding their various areas of responsibility. I'm just curious; has your office discussed or looked at software such as Pegasus or other types of spyware and their potential to jeopardize the rights and human rights of Canadians? Is that something that your office has looked into outside of the context of this study that we're undertaking now?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

I know that this has been discussed in terms of the appearance of my predecessor at this committee with regard to facial recognition technology. There were questions asked about that. To my knowledge, this is not something that is used by government institutions, but this type of technology is the type of technology that to my mind should be looked at very carefully from a privacy standpoint to ensure that its impacts are known and mitigated.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Just to clarify, your office has not undertaken an assessment of the use of software like Pegasus or other types of spyware and their impact on the privacy of Canadians.

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

No, we have not, but in the context of this matter, we look forward to receiving the PIA and information from the RCMP—not with Pegasus, but with the type of tools that are being used in this context.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Are you aware of, outside of the information that was provided in response to the Order Paper question that's been referenced, other entities in government that have used this throughout the last number of years, especially with the rapid evolution of types of technology like this? Are you aware of whether this type of technology has been used in the past and other privacy assessments have been done?

11:10 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

I'm not aware of other types of technology or privacy assessments. Our office has been involved in reviewing the facial recognition technology. It has been involved in Clearview and the use of images and an investigation in terms of cell site simulators—these types of technology. When we are involved, we look at the privacy impacts. Public interest may require the use of these tools, but we look at making sure the safeguards are there to minimize and to ensure that it's proportional.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

In my last few seconds here, can I ask whether your office has been in touch with any provincial counterparts on these or related matters regarding the use of technologies during law enforcement investigations?

11:15 a.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Philippe Dufresne

In the context of facial recognition technology, there was coordinated work with provincial privacy commissioners. A joint statement was issued on recommended principles in these matters.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Has there been any work—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

You're out of time, Mr. Kurek.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Okay. Thank you very much.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

We will now go to Ms. Hepfner.