Evidence of meeting #30 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, and thank you to our guests for joining us today.
According to the RCMP's response to the Order Paper question and the questions that the Office of the Privacy Commissioner raised concerning the covert access and intercept team, what were those concerns?
11:55 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
We did not raise concerns with respect to the specific use of tools in this instance because we have not been consulted on them yet. We will be consulted on this at the end of August.
I believe the reference is made to some of the other investigations that took place by my office of the cell site simulators and the Clearview AI, which was the use of facial recognition images of citizens.
There has been engagement and work between the RCMP and my office following these matters, but it does not relate to the current matter with the use of this new technology.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
The RCMP's response to the Order Paper question states that, in the past, the RCMP intercepted private communications and other data in motion pursuant to Criminal Code section 185 and subsection 186(6) authorizations, and other judicial orders and warrants. In your opinion, do these warrants provide sufficient protection?
11:55 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Well, this is what we will want to answer once we have the specific information about the tools and their capacities. Certainly, it does provide protection and it does provide safeguards. Hopefully, it provides sufficient safeguards. This is what we'll be looking at when we have the briefing on the tools themselves at the end of August.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
What benefit does a PIA offer that a judicially approved warrant might not?
11:55 a.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
The judicially approved warrant will look at the specific request on the basis of the criteria in the Criminal Code and will follow that process. The PIA will look at it from a program perspective. It will look at it broadly in terms of what types of available tools are being used, what are the mechanisms to authorize the use of those tools, and whether the mechanisms are sufficient. For instance, should there be different or additional requirements before they can be judicially authorized, or should there be, in addition to the judicial authorization, mechanisms for the safeguarding of information? Perhaps that's not necessary, but the PIA serves that purpose—to look at it, not with respect to a specific case but with respect to the program as a whole.
Noon
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Do you believe that your office should be consulted on every use of ODIT, or should it be on a case-by-case basis?
Noon
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
With regard to being consulted on a PIA, I'm not suggesting that every time an ODIT is being sought in a given investigation we would be consulted—not at all. What I'm suggesting is that a PIA should be done on the program and on those tools, and that we be consulted with respect to this program and those tools generally, so that we can provide input as to whether the process as a whole is sufficient to protect privacy—not with respect to specific cases.
Noon
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
How far along is the RCMP's privacy impact assessment?
Noon
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I don't know. You would have to ask them that.
Noon
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Is there a timeline for when you expect to receive the PIA?
Noon
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
What I know is that we will receive a briefing at the end of August on these tools. I don't know if the PIA will be concluded at that time. That would be something to ask them, but I know that we will be receiving a briefing at the end of August.
Noon
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Do you have any concerns about the approval process for the use of ODITs? If so, how can they be addressed?
Noon
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
My concern is that the PIA in this instance was not brought to my office's attention before the tools were used. That's my focus—looking at how this program has been looked at from a privacy standpoint and having the ability to provide our input.
I don't have concerns that I can share right now in terms of the specifics because I have not seen the specific information.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
With that, we've completed two full rounds under the time portion that the committee's operating with. We're going to a third round now, beginning with Mr. Kurek for up to five minutes.
Noon
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Some of the information has certainly been very revealing. There's one question that I'd like to ask to kind of dig into one of your previous responses.
The onus is upon government departments. I certainly know that scarcity of resources is a reality that your office faces, but the onus is upon government departments and agencies and, by extension, entities like the RCMP and whatnot to reach out to your office. However, the precedent that I see is certainly not very good. The fact is that the RCMP—I'm looking at the timeline—waited three years after starting to use this type of technology to do a privacy impact assessment and only reached out to your office after this went to the media a couple of years after that. That's not a good precedent.
We saw that the same sort of dynamic existed when it was dealing with the use of mobility data, facial recognition technology, and the list goes on and on. The fact that the onus is upon departments certainly doesn't give me much confidence that proactive work is being done.
I'd ask for your feedback, I guess, on my interpretation—certainly as a second-term parliamentarian now—that a lot of work has to be done to ensure that privacy is respected in our government.
Noon
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Absolutely. This is something that I will be looking at in terms of what we, as the OPC, can do to help this process. The first position I'm stating is that the recommendation should be a legal obligation and it should be on the departments to do so, and to proactively do so.
I've been having good exchanges and meetings with my counterparts. It's been my first month as the Privacy Commissioner, and I've spent a lot of time reaching out and having good discussions. I sense a lot of goodwill, so I want to build on that and I want to create means of communication and exchanges, so I'll be looking to see how we can improve that.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Just to clarify that, by “counterparts”, do you mean provincial counterparts or those within agencies and departments? What do you mean by—
12:05 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I mean both with respect to provincial counterparts and departments and with respect to the private sector. I'm going to continue that reach out to see how we can help that process to make sure the information flows.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I'm glad that the RCMP will be briefing you and your office come the end of August—although, again, it's disappointing that it's only under these circumstances that this is taking place.
I asked in my previous round for you to clarify if your office had safeguards in place to ensure the operational integrity of something like a law enforcement entity like the RCMP so that an investigation is not compromised, and whatnot.
I'd like to give you an opportunity to expand a little bit on that, especially as the RCMP and the Minister of Public Safety will be appearing before this committee a little bit later.
Can you expand on some of the steps that you and your office have to ensure that entities like the RCMP or other arms, agencies and departments of government can be assured that, if they reach out to you, the operational integrity of something like an investigation would be protected?
12:05 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Certainly. We will put in place the mechanisms necessary so that if we receive information that is confidential, secret or top secret, obviously we want to protect that.
Again, that goes to the point that privacy is not an obstacle to the public interest. It's not in the public interest to jeopardize the confidentiality of investigative information, so looking at a privacy impact assessment has to be done in this context. If there's information that's of a particular sensitivity, then it has to be treated appropriately, and we would put the measures in place to do so.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much.
It's the final minute or so of my questions, and you've talked about the updates that need to be made to the act. A minute is probably not enough time, but if I could, I'll ask you to provide to this committee the specific provisions within the legislation that need to be changed. There's an onus to have it codified, and not simply within the preamble of the legislation, so what specifically needs to be done? Certainly, as a committee member, I know it would be helpful for you to provide that information, probably in writing. That would be best, and if I could, I'll ask you and your office to do so in the coming days as we continue to look at this.
12:05 p.m.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Absolutely.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative