Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 8th, 2022

[Philippe Dufresne]

What I think it shows is that in Canada Parliament has taken steps to put in safeguards on the use of this information. It's important that these safeguards exist because of the impact that this technology, these tools, can have on citizens and on fundamental rights.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, through you, respectfully, do they exist? Because if they existed, we wouldn't necessarily be here right now, would we?

[Philippe Dufresne]

In this instance, what I'm saying is that there is a process to do a privacy impact assessment on the use of new tools.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I respect that, and I respect your newness to your position. I would put to this committee that, in fact, the guardrails don't exist, which is why we're here in the summer examining something that was really only discovered due to the diligence of the media.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Before we wrap up, I have a couple of points.

I don't ask a lot of questions from the chair, but I'm going to take a minute or two here.

Commissioner Dufresne, in a response to one of your questions earlier, you talked about the committee's ability to deal with sensitive information. You are a former law clerk, and you're probably uniquely qualified to give us a little more detail on how that works for the benefit of committee members.

I'll let you go ahead with that.

[Philippe Dufresne]

I'll answer that not wearing my law clerk's hat and just talk about the constitutional law principles and the committee's authority to send for papers and records and to act as the grand inquest of the nation. You have the ability to seek information, to sit in camera and to put in place mechanisms to protect the confidentiality of information that you request for your studies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

In their response to the Order Paper question that really caused this study, the response, the public reaction and the committee's decision, the RCMP said that the unit worked closely with the Public Prosecution Service and the Privacy Commissioner. Your testimony this morning did not seem to indicate that. Is that correct?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I think that is referencing a different unit of the RCMP, not the program that is using the ODIT. I think that's the distinction—

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Which program is it? Just so that we're clear, if you're able to differentiate between the two programs, that might help the committee.

[Philippe Dufresne]

My colleague can correct me, but I think they were talking about the Special “I” program, in place since 1975, as opposed to the CAIT program, which was—

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.

With that, I think we're just about out of time. I don't really want to get into final—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There's some clarification I need from you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Go ahead, if it's a point of order.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, there have been some discussions about some of the documents the committee has received from the RCMP, particularly correspondence from Commissioner Lucki. Because they have been discussed at this committee, can we make public the documents that have been provided by the RCMP to the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Some of them have already been made public in the course of this meeting. Some committee members made reference to them. I'll have a brief moment with the clerk to ensure that I understand correctly that yes, they can be referred.

Any document that is supplied can be made public unless the committee agrees otherwise. Any of the material that the committee received can be made public.

The clerk is looking for my attention. One moment.

The material that's supplied is not private to the extent that it can't be referred to in committee, but at the same time, if it were to be made public via the committee's website, for example, the committee would have to agree to it. The material is not secret. Members did, in the course of this meeting, refer to it and read portions of it into the record, so it can be made public. It's a matter of the will of the committee. You can choose to ask the clerk to place the material on the committee's website, for example.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, I move that the material provided by the RCMP for the study on-device investigation tools used by the RCMP be published on the committee's website.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Your motion is in order. I consider this the correct way to ensure that if the committee desires to have the material we've received made public, we do so.

For discussion, I see Mr. Fergus and Ms. Khalid. I'm going to go to Ms. Khalid.

Go ahead.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I'm trying to seek some clarity as to why. What is the purpose of putting these documents to the public? I'm wondering if there is anywhere we are going with this. Clearly we'll be hearing from the RCMP this afternoon. It would perhaps be more efficient to do this after the RCMP has been here so that we can pose these questions to them as well.

I'm not sure why we're having this conversation in the last two minutes of the meeting, but I'm seeking some clarity as to what the objective of this is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm not in a position to answer that question, so I'll carry on. I've got Mr. Fergus next, and I see Mr. Kurek with his hand up.

Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Could I ask if the chair could allow us to have five minutes to discuss this motion because these materials were requested. I would just like to know a little bit more about what the implications are. I would just like to have a couple of minutes to consider Mr. Bezan's motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

At a minimum, I think I would like to excuse our witnesses. We've completed our questions of our witnesses so, with our thanks, we'll allow them to leave if they would like to.

In terms of managing our time, if we have the committee resources to extend this meeting a few minutes, because we're at the hour, I'd be inclined to proceed as Mr. Fergus has suggested and return to this in a few minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have other obligations at 1 p.m. that I need to get to. It's kind of going back on the whole principle of no surprises. I leave it to you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I have Mr. Fergus who wants a few minutes to confer with colleagues. I don't want to extend this meeting past—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'll take my name off the list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Okay, at this point I have no further speakers.

I have a request for—