Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Commissioner Bryan Larkin  Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Mark Flynn  Federal Policing, National Security and Protective Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Dave Cobey  Sergeant, Technical Case Management Program, Technical Investigation Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I call this meeting to order.

With that, we'll ask the photographers with cameras to leave the room.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 31 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, July 26, 2022, the committee is meeting to study device investigation tools used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022.

For the first hour of this meeting, we are pleased to have the Honourable Marco Mendicino, privy councillor, member of Parliament and Minister of Public Safety.

With that, I will invite the minister, if he is ready, to proceed with opening remarks.

Minister, do you have your proper headset with you?

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Honourable Marco Mendicino Liberal Marco Mendicino

I am in the regional office in Quebec here, and I'm told that these are devices that have been approved by PCO. If there is any trouble, please let me know.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I'll make a quick survey of the room and the interpreters to confirm that we have good audio. Are we okay with the minister's audio?

I'm not seeing any objection, and I didn't see any reaction from interpretation. I see some nodding, okay.

With that, thank you, Minister. Go ahead for up to—

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I'm sorry; there seems to be a point of order before we begin.

Ms. Khalid, you have a point of order.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Yes, Chair, I want to review something from the last meeting. Near the end of the meeting, the committee decided to continue for another round of questions, and, at the request of an opposition member, Chair, you changed the timing for that additional round to be five minutes for each questioner as opposed to what was outlined in the routine motions.

I would like to point you to one of the routine motions that was passed unanimously by this committee on December 13, 2021. On motion of member Lisa Hepfner, it was agreed:

That witnesses be given five minutes for their opening statement; that whenever possible, witnesses provide the committee with their opening statement 72 hours in advance; that at the discretion of the Chair, during the questioning of witnesses, there be allocated six minutes for the first questioner of each party as follows: Conservative Party, Liberal Party, Bloc Québécois, New Democratic Party. For the second and subsequent rounds, the order and time for questioning be as follows: Conservative Party, five minutes; Liberal Party, five minutes; Bloc Québécois, two and a half minutes—

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

If I may, Ms. Khalid, I am fully aware of the motion and its content. If you will recall, in the meeting, when there was a request from one member to have a five-minute round when we had exhausted three full rounds, there appeared to me to be unanimous consent to proceed in the way that I did. I was merely allowing members, with the time we had left after a lengthy meeting, to go ahead, and I gave each party five more minutes.

If I may infer from this intervention that you will not agree subsequently to any other deviation from that motion, then that is noted. I don't think we're going to have time for that to be relevant, anyway, with any of our further meetings, given how tight they are.

If that's sufficient, may I proceed with our witness?

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Yes, thank you.

3:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

This is a point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I'm sorry; we have another point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Green.

3:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Referencing the Standing Orders and the routine procedures, has the minister provided this committee with his opening remarks in advance of the committee?

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I did not receive any. I'll ask the clerk if any were received.

Okay, the clerk has, in fact, received remarks, but it does appear that they were not distributed to members. I did not receive them, so we will try to get those out as quickly as possible.

Thank you, Mr. Green.

With that—

All right, we're burning up the time that we have with the minister, but go ahead.

3:05 p.m.

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

We can't see the minister, Mr. Chair.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

May I begin, Mr. Chair?

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

We're sorting out technical...

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

That's no problem.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I think this is a little better now. I understand the problem we had, but I think it's been resolved.

With that, go ahead, Minister. You have the floor.

August 8th, 2022 / 3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and colleagues.

I want to begin by thanking all the members of the committee for the study on the intersection of technology and policing, including the recent reports on facial recognition technology. I welcome the opportunity to talk about the adoption of new tools and technologies, especially as they concern transparency, privacy and legal and ethical standards.

Technology and policing have always been closely interconnected, but today's tech is advancing exponentially.

This progression extends from the evolution of mobile and wireless, to supercomputing, advanced analytics, biometrics, surveillance, forensics and beyond.

It's imperative that law enforcement bodies keep up with the pace of change. It's crucial that we do so to pursue those who would exploit new technologies for malicious intent.

This is necessary not only to increase efficiency, but also to closely examine how law enforcement selects and implements these technologies, to ensure the privacy, rights and freedoms of Canadians. In so doing, we must get that balance right.

For my part today, colleagues, I am pleased to provide a brief overview of the tools used by the RCMP.

The RCMP uses investigative technology and cutting-edge scientific tools in the areas of forensic science, fingerprinting, biometric and DNA data and surveillance, among other areas. Forensic science and identification services, for example, are integral parts of national police services, often relying on advanced science and technology.

Through these services, groundbreaking technology helps to identify biological evidence collected from crime scenes, examines firearms, seized materials and suspect counterfeit currency or I.D., and screens for a broad range of drugs and poisons and helps to provide expert scientific testimony in courts.

With respect to investigative technology specifically, the latest technology available to the RCMP helps to link crimes together, secures records and documents at crime scenes, identifies suspects and victims writ large and helps to keep Canadians and our communities safe.

The RCMP's CAIT program, or covert access and intercept team, uses approved technology to collect data that cannot be collected using traditional wiretapping technology or other less intrusive investigative techniques. This is only used under judicial authorization for the most serious offences.

Further, their Special “I” program is primarily responsible for the lawful electronic surveillance mandate of the RCMP. This has been the unit responsible for all interception of private communications that can be obtained pursuant to authority under part VI of the Criminal Code. It involves technical installations and deployments of electronic surveillance equipment in support of policing investigations. It also involves monitoring and analysis of data and communications that have been lawfully intercepted.

But colleagues, through all these examples, I'll be clear that transparency and accountability, privacy, and respecting fundamental rights and the law are paramount. The Privacy Commissioner has echoed that sentiment. And the government is committed to making sure that is foundational to all activities, including training and operational processes.

In particular, one of the key outcomes of the commissioner's investigation and report on the use of facial recognition was the need for a centralized process for the adoption of new tools and technologies.

In March of last year, the RCMP created the national technologies onboarding program, or NTOP.

The purpose of the national technologies onboarding program, or NTOP, is to centralize, standardize and bring greater transparency to the processes that govern how the RCMP identifies, evaluates, tracks and approves the use of new technologies and investigative tools. It will be the first point of contact for any unit interested in using any new operational technology. It will also ensure that a thorough evaluation of the technology is completed, making sure that the technology meets all privacy, legal and ethical standards.

The NTOP has begun accepting new technologies for assessment and will continue to increase capacity as it moves towards becoming fully operational.

I want to highlight that the RCMP is fully engaged with the Privacy Commissioner's office to ensure that privacy impacts are assessed for all new uses of facial recognition being considered.

Legal considerations are equally taken into account for the use of technology at all stages, including through the Criminal Code, which sets out provisions for judicial authorization and requires that we report annually to Parliament on the use of electronic surveillance.

Given the RCMP's mandate and the necessity to safeguard the ability to effectively use on-device investigative tools, we are not always able to discuss all of the technical or operational details of these tools. Where that is the case, it is for operational integrity and security only.

I understand that I'm out of time. I will be happy to take any questions from members of the committee.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Indeed you are, but I gave you a few seconds to finish. Thank you, Minister.

We'll go to Mr. Bezan for up to six minutes.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Minister Mendicino for joining us today.

Minister, when did you first become aware that the RCMP was using on-device investigation tools like Pegasus?

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

First, I want to be clear with members of the committee that the Pegasus technology is not used by the RCMP. That's the first thing I would clarify.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

What technology are you using?

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Second, as I said towards the end of my remarks, Mr. Bezan, some of the investigative techniques are kept confidential to preserve operational integrity and ensure that we can bring people to justice when necessary. They are always consistent with the charter and privacy rights.

3:15 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Have you issued guidelines that would provide better direction to the RCMP, CSIS and other federal agencies on how they use ODIT?

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Bezan, that's a good question.

There are stringent requirements in the Criminal Code that require accountability, including for what facts the RCMP will be relying on prior to the judicial authorization of this sort of technique. There are other safeguards that ensure only designated agents put those applications to the court. There is also the annual report that we file with Parliament. Of course, I invite any suggestions from this committee during your study.