Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 8th, 2022

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, sir.

This committee has been studying, as you mentioned in your opening remarks, facial recognition technology and data mobility. Technology is continually evolving. This is just the latest instance. As you mentioned, 2017 was when this technology came into effect, so we assume there's a lot more of this technology in effect.

To your knowledge, do you know of any other departments under your purview that we should be looking at and for which we should be pushing for privacy impact assessments at this point?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would not want to preempt the independence of your committee and whom you wish to study. I would invite, though, the conversation we are having right now on how we can ensure that we are protecting privacy.

There are protections that already exist, but there are mechanisms that I think we can continue to modernize as we use new technology to subvert the efforts of criminal organized actors and other bad actors who would seek to undermine the health and safety of Canadians.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Minister, would it help that Canada's privacy laws be updated quickly? This is something you've been asked, not just on this testimony today but in past testimony. Is that something you think we should be trying to push through a little quicker?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think we should always be looking at ways to ensure that Canadians' privacy is being protected. Again, I encourage the study that you are undertaking right now.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Minister, when we talk about the procurement of such technology—obviously someone makes those decisions—is your office aware of those decisions when they're made?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

There are a number of different procurements that are undertaken by independent operational decisions, which, for good reason, lie within the purview of the RCMP. You don't want elected officials conducting investigations.

That having been said, where there are requests for certain types of technology or additional resources, those are usually appropriated under budget requests or other requests. When those are submitted, we obviously evaluate them on the merits.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Are you aware of CSIS or CSE or any other institution using this technology you've mentioned today?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I can speak for my portfolio. As I said, the RCMP has said that this is a technique that is used.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Okay.

Are you aware of anyone else using it at ths point?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Certainly, when techniques like this are used by the government, they are done in a manner that is consistent with the charter, with privacy laws and with all the other mechanisms and transparency attached to it.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

With that, next we go to Mrs. Valdez for five minutes.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

Minister, part VI of the Criminal Code sets out the authority for the lawful electronic surveillance mandate of the RCMP. As with any sort of search and seizure, the Criminal Code does not provide the authority for mass surveillance, but grants law enforcement these tools only when absolutely necessary to maintain safety and security.

Minister, can you advise this committee on the threshold needed for the interception of private communications, per the Criminal Code?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's a very high one, Ms. Valdez, as you have already mentioned. It is not an easy test to meet. There are only specific individuals, who are authorized under the law, who can bring forward an application for judicial authorization to conduct a wiretap or to utilize some of the investigative techniques that are the subject of this study. It requires that the offence for which there's an expectation that information or evidence might be procured through the technique falls within a very limited number of serious offences under the Criminal Code.

As we already mentioned, Ms. Valdez, the state has to go to some length to demonstrate that this technique, this form of surveillance or search and seizure, is not a first resort and not a tool of convenience but rather is only requested after other efforts have been exhausted. Many protections that are built into the Criminal Code and the law generally are there to achieve the balance between allowing the state to protect individuals while at the same time protecting the individual privacy of all Canadians.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You highlighted in your opening remarks the importance of transparency, privacy and accountability. We as Canadians need this from our intelligence agencies. How can we assure Canadians that we respect their right to privacy and their rights set out in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and how are those being upheld?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think the short answer is that it's by continuing to demand openness and transparency and accountability. That is why I'm pleased to appear before you and the other members of this committee. I invite the study that you are undertaking right now. I think it is important that we explain to Canadians why law enforcement has to resort to this technology. In turn, it's because criminals and bad actors are getting better at finding ways to avoid detection by law enforcement, whether it's through encryption or through other sophisticated techniques. They don't want to be caught. They want to get away with it.

We know that the consequences can be devastating, particularly as we start to live out more of our lives online. These are not technologies that are being deployed as a matter of convenience, or lightly or frivolously. These are technologies that are being deployed by the state to protect the security, safety and health of Canadians. As we deploy those techniques and those technologies, I think it's important that we shine a light, as much as we possibly can, without compromising operational integrity. There is a balance to be struck there, but to circle back to the original premise of your question, we can build confidence among Canadians if we are open with them.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

In March 2021 our government created the national technologies onboarding program to bring more transparency to the RCMP and how they gather, identify and track new and emerging technologies. Can you give the committee some oversight on how this program works and how the RCMP maintains that right to privacy while conducting their investigations?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

In plain terms, it's meant to centralize these processes. By centralizing them, we can ensure that there's greater compliance with professional standards, with the law. Chief members of the RCMP have been designated to apply for the use of these techniques. They're very much up to speed on what is required by the court...making sure that they're kept abreast of any developments in the law, because on occasion the courts will clarify on how the law should be interpreted, depending on the techniques being used and the technology being used, and how they are interpreting on how we strike that balance appropriately.

Centralizing through the NTOP does allow for, I think, a higher level of confidence that the members of the RCMP are adhering to the rigours of the law with highly trained individuals who are adhering to high professional standards.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Chair, I think that might be my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

You have time for another question, if you like. You have about 35 seconds left.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Let me try to squeeze this in.

Minister, at the end of the day, Canadians want to know that their privacy, their families and their rights are protected. How can we continue to assure that this is going to happen for Canadians?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It will be by making sure that we have laws that protect their privacy; by making sure that we adhere to the mechanisms of transparency; by co-operating with NSIRA, NSICOP and the Privacy Commissioner; and by continuing to engage with all parliamentarians, including this committee, so that we can have an open and frank discussion about how we protect Canadians with new technologies while respecting their rights under the charter.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

All right. That will do it.

Now we will go to Monsieur Villemure.

You have two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, is it possible to provide the committee with all the reports you mentioned a little earlier? That would be very helpful, because it would save us a lot of hours of research.