Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I think the problem is understood.

Oh, no. The translator is waving to me, so perhaps we have a problem with translation, too. I'll suspend, and we'll get this sorted out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

We're back in session. I understand that the interpreters also have the same issue we do. Zoom audio is okay, but room audio is a bit of a problem. I'm not sure at what point—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

If I may, Mr. Chair, it was at the point he started to describe what the “data for good” was. I was just waiting for the definition, and it disappeared from the screen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

All right. Hopefully, since the Zoom audio is okay, we are going to ultimately end up with a good record of this meeting, but maybe Mr. Allison can address that one point and otherwise wrap up his response, because we are running out of time, Mr. Fergus.

[Christopher Allison]

I'll make it quick, Mr. Chair.

The “data for good” program is the specific entity or part of Telus that the contract is with. The original RFP had a number of proposals in place to, again, make sure we were using de-identified, aggregated data, and the new RFP looks to take the best practices we had and continue to build on them.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much again, Mr. Chair, for your kindness in allowing me to pose that question.

I will just ask one more thing. If the witness felt he had more information or wanted to make sure we had the complete information, if he thought that it was relevant, I would invite him to submit it to the committee in writing on this particular question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

By all means. That's noted, and with that, I will go to Monsieur Villemure for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was very happy to hear Dr. Tam say that it was not the end of the world if the tender was postponed and that it could be reinterpreted in retrospect. Indeed, the fact that the official tender date is being delayed shows us that.

Mr. Allison, if I understand correctly, at TELUS there is a presumption of consent, since the opt-out was not exercised. In your view, is the presumption of consent valid consent?

[Christopher Allison]

Mr. Chair, the question of meaningful consent isn't really one I can answer. Telus is transparent about what it is doing. The Government of Canada is being transparent about what it's doing and how it is using mobility data, but at the end of the day, it is up to users of the service to make the decision whether or not they would withdraw their consent from Telus.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

As I understand it, the average mobile phone user won't know about this unless they are a little more informed or have checked the TELUS website.

Is that right?

[Christopher Allison]

That is correct.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You cannot tell me the process by which millions of users implicitly consented to the exchange of data.

Am I right?

[Christopher Allison]

Not exactly, Mr. Chair. Through COVIDTrends, which, again, is a public Government of Canada website that has seen more than 1.7 million people go through, there is a very clear link to mobility data. There's a link to the Telus site. We explain where the data is coming from and we explain that it can be opted out of.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right.

So one can exercise one's right to refuse if one has the presence of mind to do so.

Was TELUS the only data provider? After all, there are other telephone companies in Canada.

[Christopher Allison]

The only telco that was engaged by the Public Health Agency of Canada was Telus. For the current RFP, of course, there may be other bidders and other vendors. Then, of course, there is BlueDot, which is crowd-sourced data, which is different. That is still active until March 22.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am told that the interpretation is not working.

Can you confirm whether or not this is the case?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I am receiving interpretation. Are there any other members who didn't?

I'll try speaking in French to see if the interpretation works.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Can I have my speaking time back?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'll do my best. Go ahead. Yes, I'll make sure you get your time.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Allison, paragraph 2.3 of the French tender call specifications speaks of a use “beyond the pandemic”.

Will the use of location data obtained from mobile devices continue after the pandemic?

And who will decide when the pandemic is over?

[Christopher Allison]

I'm not certain exactly who would decide when the pandemic comes to an end. I believe potentially Dr. Tam would be better placed to answer that question than I am.

The idea behind the contract is, again, that the mobility data can be very useful as we're looking at a range of public health problems across Canada, and could be useful as we gain more experience both with using the data effectively and using it ethically while protecting the privacy of people in Canada. The intent is to explore what could be done after that, but without predisposing any decision that PHAC might make.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

The data could therefore be used after the end of the pandemic, although it cannot be determined at this time when it will be over.

Dr. Tam, I'm curious. Are you ever going to say that the pandemic is over? How will that work?

[Dr. Theresa Tam]

The definition of a pandemic and the declaration is done at an international level. At the Canadian level, we could certainly, together with the provinces, look at when we pass what I call the “crisis phase” of a pandemic, but we believe this virus is going to continue to affect our population for a significant period of time.

I was not involved in the RFP, but I believe the [Technical difficulty—Editor], for example, beyond the COVID situation we have at the moment.

Of course, we should look at what we learned in terms of the application during COVID, because as I said, I believe public health is insufficiently capacitated, particularly as it relates to the use of big data. Therefore, this is something we will continue to learn.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'll summarize this by saying that it is possible that the data will be used after the pandemic, even though we don't know when the pandemic will end. I understand your reasoning completely, but it is possible that the data will be used after the pandemic. At the moment, we don't know that.

Is that the case, Mr. Allison?

[Christopher Allison]

Mr. Chair, based on the terms of the contract, which, again, is public and is open, there is the option to extend the contract.