Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

Now, for two and a half minutes, we have Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, can you tell me in detail what the process was by which millions of users consented to the collection of data?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

As I have stated on several occasions, the Canadian government has never collected and will never collect information of a private nature regarding this issue. The information that was solicited and obtained is aggregated and anonymous information, and therefore cannot in any way lead to the identification of individuals or the sharing or use of personal information about those individuals.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right, but someone had to anonymize the data.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The data we obtained was already aggregated and anonymous. We would never aim to identify these individuals, which would in any case be quite impossible and inappropriate.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Of course, I agree with you.

That said, someone obtained non-anonymized data and anonymized it. How was consent given to obtain the first data?

How did your supplier, who gave you anonymized data, obtain consent from the millions of users?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I will repeat my answer, Mr. Villemure. I think you have understood it, but there may be people who have not yet understood.

The data that we asked for and obtained is anonymous and aggregated data. It is impossible to identify people and it is impossible to use the private information of these people with the data we used, and which is available by the way. As I said, 1.7 million people have been able to view it in the last few months.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Did the people who anonymized the data for you get consent from the users?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'm telling you what the Canadian government did. Let me repeat that the data we obtained was anonymous and aggregated. It is impossible for it to lead to the identification of individuals, behaviours or individual characteristics, because this information cannot be used for those purposes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Do you think this was ethical?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

In the context of COVID‑19, the Canadian government has an ethical, moral, economic and health obligation to protect the safety and health of people, while absolutely protecting the privacy of people. Tens of thousands of people have unfortunately died, including in Quebec.

Tens of thousands more could have died if we had not done our job properly.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Minister.

Now we go to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Allison, I'm hoping to get a straight answer. I have to say I'm not comfortable with the way in which I would say language is being used here in terms of who's culpable for this. What I feel I'm hearing from the minister and from his testimony today is that we're outsourcing potential privacy breaches.

Within the context of your procurement contract, through the chair to Mr. Allison, is it the case that BlueDot and Telus are always actively engaged in the tracking of mobility of Canadians, or was this a specific procurement track of the program that would have requested specific data that would then have been aggregated?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Matthew, I'm not sure I understand your question.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is for Mr. Allison, Mr. Chair.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

On a point of order, could I ask Mr. Green to turn his camera back on, please? We can't see him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

That's a fair point of order. We can have Mr. Green on.

Go ahead. I stopped your clock, Mr. Green. I'm keeping track here.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I think you got your question in. I'll leave it to our panel of witnesses to respond and then we'll carry on.

[Christopher Allison]

My apologies, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Green, if you could please repeat the core of your question, I would be very pleased to respond to it.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The question is this, quite simply put: We've heard today that the government is not willing to take responsibility for the collection of this data. You have outsourced potential privacy breaches to BlueDot or Telus because they would be the ones that would be collecting the individual data.

When you crafted the procurement for this particular contract, was it with the understanding that BlueDot and Telus were already collecting this mobility data on people, or did it provide specificity in the request on behalf of the government?

[Christopher Allison]

Mr. Chair, both BlueDot and Telus collect this data as part of their business. It may be a point of clarification that in terms of consent, both have options for consent. On Telus, there's a website where folks can go and look at how their data is being used as part of the “data for good” process. All you need to do is enter your [Technical difficulty—Editor]. BlueDot, as a crowd-sourced operator, does this through individual applications on users' cellphone devices.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Then you would agree that in the context of this program, BlueDot and Telus were actively engaged in tracking the individual mobility of their users for purposes for which they did not have users' full and informed consent?

[Christopher Allison]

I can't speak directly to the business of BlueDot or Telus. They use cellular mobility data, and they provide that as a service to others. They have both commercial and, again, “for good” or “for social good” uses of these programs.