Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I have one more question: Who in cabinet was aware of the fact this was going on? Was the health minister involved with this? Did cabinet make the decision to start this practice?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You, Mr. Brassard, should have known that, because it has been posted since April 2020.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

The question is who in cabinet? Was cabinet aware of this? That's my question.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Mr. Brassard, you don't need to be a member of the cabinet. The Prime Minister announced that in March 2020. It's been ongoing since April 2020, and 1.7 million Canadians were able to visit the application and the website to look at those data.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Minister Duclos.

Now we go to Ms. Hepfner.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I want to start by thanking the minister and the rest of his team for their service during this pandemic. It's been truly extraordinary work, and I appreciate it. I have had the opportunity to ask the minister questions in my previous capacity as a journalist, but this is my first time asking questions of a parliamentary committee panel, so I want to let him know what an honour and a privilege it is to ask about something that's been really concerning me for the past several days, which is the misinformation that is continually repeated, not only online but in Parliament, Mr. Chair.

When misinformation is constantly repeated in places of authority, people get confused. Maybe even some people on this committee are confused about the facts. I'd like to show you one example from yesterday's question period, in which a member called mobility data a data scoop, and went on to say, and I quote, “Why was it done in secret without the users' consent? Why was the Privacy Commissioner not consulted?”

I would just like to ask you, Minister, if you could clarify for Canadians, first, whether this was a data scoop, was done in secret or was done without users' consent, and second, whether the Privacy Commissioner was consulted. I know you've answered a bit of this before, but I think it will do us good to repeat the truth.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

We're very fortunate to have you on the committee. Welcome to the committee and to opportunities that I'm sure you'll take full advantage of in your new parliamentary career.

I have three brief reactions.

The first is around the confusion about the facts. As members of Parliament, we have a duty to avoid confusion and to avoid creating fear when there should be no fear. I mentioned earlier that those data were and are anonymized, de-identified and aggregated. Anyone who has had basic training in statistics knows that data that are de-identified, anonymized and aggregated cannot be used for personal information purposes. You don't need a Ph.D. in statistics to understand that.

The second thing is that we have worked with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner from the very start, following all the rules and regulations, and we keep working with and we value very much the work of the Privacy Commission.

The third thing is that this has not been secret. It was announced in March 2020. On the web since 2020, 1.7 million Canadians have been able to see those data on an application called COVIDTrends.

Canadians can see this on the WeatherCAN application or l'application météo. There's no secret about this. It's been public; it was announced; it's there. Canadians can look at the data, and we've been using it to protect the health and safety of Canadians.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Can you clarify for us whether other jurisdictions in Canada or around the world are using mobility data in their fight against COVID-19?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The United States, the U.K., Australia, Spain, Germany, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Equador, the Netherlands, Italy, Greece, Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Portugal, Slovenia, Sweden and Norway. I'm going to stop here. There are many others. We are all in the same boat, fighting the same disease. We need information and science to beat and fight this disease.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Ms. Hepfner, you have a little less than two minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Let's talk about what is really concerning to Canadians, which is the security of their data and their privacy being respected. Can you tell us a bit about how the Public Health Agency protected the privacy of Canadians' data and ensured the security of that data?

Maybe you can even talk a little about the Telus data privacy award, which I think was recent.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Lisa. For a slightly different perspective, maybe I could turn to Ms. Kathy Thompson, who, as you have heard, is a key expert with her team. She's working very hard in an environment in which information and science are key.

Kathy, if it's fine with you, may I turn to you? You might want to turn to Mr. Allison at some point.

[Kathy Thompson, Executive Vice-President, Public Health Agency of Canada]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

I'm happy to speak to the measures that were taken to respect the privacy of Canadians, which was utmost in our minds as we embarked on using mobility data, as the minister said, at the beginning of the pandemic, because of and in response to the pandemic. We ensured that the contract we had in place with Telus and the contract we have in place with BlueDot, as well as the RFP that you're aware has been posted, put forward a number of requirements to protect the privacy of Canadians.

We require that all data that is provided to the agency is de-identified and aggregated. It's aggregated either temporally or spatially, so in terms of either a period of time, by volume or by geographic region, to ensure that we cannot identify any single individual.

All the information we get is void of any personal information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Ms. Thompson, we're just about out of time.

Thank you.

Mr. Villemure, you now have six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I will divide my time into several questions, but I will reiterate that the Department of Health is using data for a commendable purpose. We do not object to that; it is the means employed that we are discussing here.

Minister, before we go any further, I would like to know if you will suspend the tender, as requested in the motion unanimously passed by the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

I also thank you for acknowledging that our goal is commendable. I would go even further and say that not only is it for a laudable purpose, but protecting the population's health and safety must be an essential purpose of government.

The global crisis we are in requires us to use all the tools and information we need to protect Canadians. We talked earlier about the tens of thousands more people who would have died if we had not used all the tools at our disposal.

On the issue of the tender, if you want more information from officials, they will be happy to provide it.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much

The tender closes tomorrow and I would like to know if you will order its suspension.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The tender was actually supposed to close tomorrow, but the deadline has been extended to February 18, because bidders have asked us for more time to produce a better bid. This will also allow us to benefit from as much competition as possible under the circumstances. We know that competition in a bidding environment leads not only to better costs, but also to better results.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

Did the 33 million mobile device users who were subject to “monitoring”, or at least whose location data was used, consent to the monitoring?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

There was no surveillance, Mr. Villemure. I will repeat in French what I said in English earlier. The data is anonymized and aggregated. It is impossible to have information of a private nature, and it is obvious that this has not been requested. You are an ethicist and a statistician who is not only reputable but also competent enough to understand that aggregated and anonymized data cannot be used to identify people.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I am absolutely convinced that the department cannot identify people. We agree on that. On the other hand, [Technical difficulty—Editor] between the initial cell towers and [Technical difficulty—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

We've lost you, Mr. Villemure. You'll have to repeat your question. Your audio cut out for a moment.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I am quite sure that the Public Health Agency of Canada cannot identify people. However, the data was collected by a third party, and there is little information about their handling of it, which concerns me. I don't think the department wants to or can identify people. But let's be clear: there is still a concern about consent.

I will ask you [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

It cut out again. I'm sorry. You're having problems, perhaps with your microphone. It's not a question of translation. The audio cut out completely.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Is that better?