Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Here is my last question, through you, Mr. Chair.

We've heard time and again that the Privacy Commissioner was engaged. The Privacy Commission has suggested that they were not consulted, and we heard today that this program was not subject to the Privacy Act. Through you to the minister, if it wasn't subject to the Privacy Act, then why were there bimonthly meetings?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's because it's an absolutely essential thing to be able to work together on a continuing, ongoing basis. Obviously, this wasn't the only issue being discussed with the Privacy Commissioner.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, through you. At any time, did they provide you with a caution—

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

You're out of time, Mr. Green. I'm sorry.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, can the minister please provide the answer to this question in writing?

I'm asking whether or not, at any time, the Privacy Commissioner provided caution on the program, and if so, what caution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Your request is noted, but you're well out of time, and we have the minister for only about another four minutes.

We're going to finish the round with two minutes from Mr. Kurek and two minutes from Ms. Khalid.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

To the minister, Mr. Chair, 33 million Canadians had their information observed and then aggregated and sent to PHAC. There are a lot of steps in between what PHAC, I'm being told, has received and the information that was collected from the cellphones of Canadians. Minister, were there clear guardrails involved in ensuring that data was protected, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

First, let me say to Matthew, MP Green—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

With respect, Minister, it's my time. I hope you can provide that answer in writing to Mr. Green.

Were clear guardrails put into place, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I will do that, and any other question I will be pleased to answer.

On the guardrails, as I said earlier and am pleased to repeat again, the information that we received was de-identified, aggregated—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Minister, I think you're missing the point. This data does exist. PHAC may not have received it in the report it got, as we got a copy of one of the BlueDot, but the information exists somewhere.

Did PHAC ensure that there were clear guardrails put in place so that the privacy of Canadians was protected at every step of the way, for the 33 million users of cellphones across this country whose data was then aggregated and sent to the department?

There are a lot of steps between somebody's cellphone being observed and the information that was sent to PHAC. Were clear guardrails in place, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

PHAC did what it had to do, and with other government—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'll take that as a no. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

The minister can answer the question, and that will be it.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Well, thank you, Chair. I think I have enough time—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair. The minister isn't able to answer the question because he's being interrupted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I've ruled on that already and asked Mr. Kurek to stop so that we can get a quick answer from Mr. Duclos.

Go ahead, Minister Duclos.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The time of the members of the committee is very important. It's great to ask great questions. I'm grateful for that. Sometimes I think it's important for members of the committee to hear answers as well.

If I don't have time to answer those questions sufficiently well, please don't hesitate to use other channels to ask them. My team will be extremely pleased to do so. We have a joint responsibility to look after each other, including protecting the privacy of Canadians. This is what PHAC has done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Minister Duclos.

Now, for the last two minutes, to take us roughly to our hour with the minister, go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Minister, Dr. Tam and health officials, for sharing your time with us today.

Minister, we've had this discussion. I have observed the questions of the members on this issue over the past number of weeks as it has developed. We're talking about a balance between protecting the privacy of Canadians and maintaining and using good-quality data to protect Canadians' health and safety.

Minister, I know you weren't able to get through a lot of your answers with previous questioners. Can you perhaps outline for us what additional steps the ministry, PHAC, took to ensure that safety was protected and that we were able to really secure that balance between security of privacy and security of health for Canadians?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a great way to frame the responsibility. It's a joint responsibility, as you've said, to protect the privacy of Canadians—it's an utmost absolute priority of this government—and this other responsibility to protect their health and safety. You've said it really well. We have this joint responsibility.

That's why the data that were used were used in an anonymized, aggregated, de-identified manner, and that's why the usefulness of that data has been demonstrated in about 30 countries. I can list them again. All G7 countries and almost all OECD countries that I know of have been using those same data to protect the health and safety of everyone. It's a joint responsibility. You've explained it really well. We'll continue to address that responsibility, with your assistance and input.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Chair, do I have time for a quick question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Two minutes go by really quickly. You have maybe five seconds. If you have a yes-or-no question, I'll let it go.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Okay. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It's not a yes-or-no question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

In that case, then, we're just about a couple of minutes over on the hour with the minister. At this point, I will thank him. He may, if he wishes—and of course we wouldn't say no if he wanted to—stay through to the end. At this point, we'll thank the minister for appearing.

We have Dr. Tam, and we still have our other officials on the call, so now I'm going to proceed directly back to Mr. Brassard for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Brassard.