Evidence of meeting #42 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rubin.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Do you find that our current system in this country would meet the threshold that you would believe is necessary for a modern democracy?
I'll start again with Mr. Cutler.
4:55 p.m.
Investigative Researcher and Transparency Advocate, As an Individual
Absolutely not.
4:55 p.m.
Co-Founder, Democracy Watch
No, I think we rank now about 54th in the world, so we're way behind.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I appreciate that.
I have a few more specific questions, and I'll ask for a bit more information.
Mr. Cutler, you mentioned some loopholes. In 30-40 seconds, could you talk about how this committee could make some recommendations to fix some of the challenges surrounding loopholes?
5 p.m.
Former President, Canadians for Accountability
There's a simple loophole that I mentioned before. I made an access request, and I've been waiting 60 days for the acknowledgement. The officials cashed the cheque, but they have not acknowledged my access request. The 30 days that they will ask as an extension—I guarantee it—doesn't start until they send me the letter. They've got 60 days already, and now they're going to look for more time.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Mr. Conacher, is there anything you'd like to add in just a few seconds?
5 p.m.
Co-Founder, Democracy Watch
Yes. In terms of submissions, I have made a submission to the committee regarding the 18 recommendations. You will be receiving it once it's translated.
To pick up on one that Michel Drapeau spoke about on Monday, his suggestion was to have a right to go to court after one year. I do not think that's the way to go, because the courts don't move any more quickly, and they also have a backlog.
The real solution is that Parliament should be required to provide whatever amount of funding the Information Commissioner proposes annually, that the Auditor General and Parliamentary Budget Officer should assess and determine what is needed to ensure an effective and timely enforcement of the act, and that there should be effective training of public officials about how to uphold the right to know and the right of access.
That would solve many of the problems, because along with the penalties that I suggested, everyone would know you're going to get caught if you're breaking the law, and you're going to get penalized very soon. That would clean things up enormously.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
In a few seconds, Mr. Rubin, would you have anything to add to that?
5 p.m.
Investigative Researcher and Transparency Advocate, As an Individual
Why don't we just start with creative avoidance of massive-scale record destruction if it's a draft? Also, oral communication is rampant. If you name it, this government and previous governments have done it.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I appreciate that.
Mr. Conacher, regarding ATIP requests, would you be able to highlight, in your observations, some of the worst offenders within government departments? Could you highlight those for us? Again, I'm on a tight timeline, so could you do that as quickly as possible?
5 p.m.
Co-Founder, Democracy Watch
It's simply better to refer to the Information Commissioner's report. Every year the list of which institutions are the worst changes. The overall record for meeting the 30-day deadline, which is the legal requirement, is very bad, so the violations are rampant across the board and across all institutions. I've waited years myself.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Okay. Just to follow up, I have a few thoughts, and then one more important question that I want to ask.
Mr. Conacher, are there any thoughts on Bill C-58 that you'd like to share with the committee?
5 p.m.
Co-Founder, Democracy Watch
Bill C-58 was a step backwards in some ways. It certainly didn't keep the 2015 promises of the Liberals to make government information “open by default”, which is a direct quote from the Liberals' 2015 platform. The commissioner now has power to make orders, but it's not strong enough. You need power and a requirement for minimum penalties if they violate the law: That's going to change the whole incentive to comply right away. That's a key change.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I appreciate that.
Mr. Rubin, in just 10 seconds, if you could...?
5 p.m.
Investigative Researcher and Transparency Advocate, As an Individual
Bill C-58 destroyed the access act because it hived off, as a phony proactive measure, the Prime Minister's records, ministers' records and a host of other things.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
I appreciate that.
I have a last question. I've heard from a number of witnesses that in relation to both access to information and to other issues as well, Canada needs whistle-blower protections both from within government and for those who would try to highlight some of the challenges from one or two steps surrounding it.
I'm going to go through all three of you again. Does Canada have appropriate whistle-blower protections, or do we need more?
I'll start with Mr. Cutler.
5 p.m.
Former President, Canadians for Accountability
I wouldn't even start with me, because you would finish with me.
5 p.m.
Former President, Canadians for Accountability
We don't have them. We have never had them. The accountability act did not give them—
5 p.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Okay. I'm almost out of time.
Go ahead, Mr. Rubin.
5 p.m.
Investigative Researcher and Transparency Advocate, As an Individual
Pierre Poilievre and John Baird established the worst and lousiest whistle-blowing non-protection act in the world.
5 p.m.
Co-Founder, Democracy Watch
Yes, we're even further behind. We're ranked about 60th in whistle-blower protection, so compared to the rest of the world, we're even worse than we are in access to information.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you for your frankness, all three of you.
Ms. Hepfner, you have the floor for six minutes.