Evidence of meeting #47 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lapointe.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Wernick  Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Kirk LaPointe  Vice-President, Editorial, Glacier Media; Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Business in Vancouver

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 47 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Therefore, members can attend in person in the room or remotely by using the Zoom application.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me. Please note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to fully participate.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108 (3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, May 16, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the access to information and privacy system.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses today. As an individual, we have Mr. Michael Wernick, the Jarislowsky chair in public sector management at the University of Ottawa. From the Glacier Media Group, we have Mr. Kirk LaPointe, vice-president, editorial, and publisher and editor-in-chief of Business in Vancouver.

I would now like to welcome Mr. Simard, of the Bloc québécois, and Mr. Julian, of the NDP.

Mr. Wernick, you have five minutes, sir. The floor is yours. You'll be followed by Mr. LaPointe.

3:30 p.m.

Michael Wernick Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee for having invited me to testify.

I'd like to acknowledge the presence of Mr. LaPointe. I'm very honoured to be attending this meeting in the company of such a distinguished journalist.

I will dispense with my biography. I'm sure the clerk can provide it for you, and anybody can find me on LinkedIn or Wikipedia. I left government more than three years ago, but my interest in public sector management continues with my role at the University of Ottawa.

I'll say right away that I have not spoken to anyone inside the government about my appearance and testimony today. I haven't read any of the other briefs to the committee or transcripts of appearances, so I don't know what other advice you've been getting or will have to sort out.

I was a senior executive in the federal government for 28 years, and at the deputy minister level for 17. About half that time, I worked for Liberal governments, and half that time for Conservative governments. I offer the committee some experience and perspective on how access to information impacts the work of the federal public service and works in practice, along with some suggestions on how it could be improved.

My views on ATIP are on the record. They're set out in detail in a one-hour video on YouTube posted by World Press Freedom Canada. I was pleased to participate in a debate they sponsored on access to information in September 2021. Members may have missed it, because they were out campaigning for the election held two weeks later.

In the interest of brevity, I sent a written statement to the clerk last Thursday, which I hope has been circulated to you. I don't propose to read it all today. The short form of the main points I'd like to leave you with today are as follows.

One, the request-based regime of the 1980s' ATIP is not enough. The act should be expanded to become a transparency act for the 2020s and 2030s. The commissioner should be restyled a transparency commissioner and given a broad mandate to examine and make recommendations regarding transparency practices across the entire federal public sector, including the public service, all Crown corporations, Parliament itself and the courts.

Two, there is nothing that would stop a government, now or in the future, from curtailing, rolling back or making exceptions to the transparency practices that have built up over the last 10 or 15 years. To make that more painful, the act should be expanded now, before the next election, to contain a robust statutory obligation for routine, regular and proactive disclosure of a long list of information categories, set out in my brief, so there can be no backsliding after October 2025.

Three, the entire access regime should apply to any taxpayer-funded staff and ministers' offices, including the Prime Minister's Office, to create a completely level playing field between political staff and public servants.

Four, there is no way that a request-based model for accessing information and, indeed, the protection of privacy can perform well unless governments finally take seriously and invest in the storage, management and retrieval of records. No government ever does that, and the state of records management in the federal government is shambolic. To start the long, hard work required to fix this mess, the act should be expanded to contain reporting and feedback loops that force the government of the day to pay attention and report progress to Canadians and, indeed, this committee.

Five, the concept of duty to document is one of those things that sound good if you say them fast enough, but would not work in practice. It could have harmful and unintended consequences.

As a former secretary to the cabinet and clerk of the Privy Council who had responsibility, over three years, for the cabinet process and papers, I'm eager to speak about issues around cabinet confidences and the deliberations of cabinet and its committees. I've set out my views on cabinet government in some detail in my 2021 book, Governing Canada. They certainly came up in the debate hosted by World Press Freedom last September.

The short version of my message is this: It would not be in the public interest to make it harder for cabinet to deliberate and take decisions.

With that lead out of the way, I will be pleased to take questions from the committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Wernick.

Mr. LaPointe, you have five minutes to address the committee. Sir, please go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Kirk LaPointe Vice-President, Editorial, Glacier Media; Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Business in Vancouver

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see Michael Wernick today.

Thank you so much for the opportunity to discuss access to information reform with you today. I'm Kirk LaPointe. I'm the publisher and editor-in-chief of Business in Vancouver, the business news outlet in British Columbia, and the vice-president of editorial for the Glacier Media chain of news outlets, the largest in western Canada. I also teach ethics and leadership in the journalism program as an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia. Part of my role is instruction in freedom of information law, and it's also, of course, part of my duties as an editor.

My familiarity with ATIP dates back to my roles in the 1980s and 1990s in Ottawa, as bureau chief of the Canadian Press and a host on CBC News Network, then known as CBC Newsworld. I've advocated strong use of ATIP in news operations that I've run at CP, then at Southam News, the Hamilton Spectator, CTV News and the Vancouver Sun, now at Glacier Media. I personally have filed more than 3,000 requests, and newsrooms I've managed have filed well more than 15,000.

I approach ATIP not as an opportunity to scandalize the government of the day but as an important instrument for the public we serve to understand our history, the decision-making of those who serve us, and the inherent complexities, challenges and dilemmas of public administration. The work I've done has shed light on everything from cabinet discussions on the War Measures Act to value-for-money evaluations across a range of departmental programs to the expenses to operate our official residences and much more.

My lens has been what I subjectively consider the public interest, and my instrument has been a law that I believed would illuminate the operation of government. Until Bill C-58, that belief took several steps backward. Recent reforms to the law have made progress in recapturing some of the original spirit of the law as envisioned by Ged Baldwin, the Conservative MP I knew from my earlier days in the national capital, but there remains a very long road ahead to fulfill his vision.

Too often in its history, users of the law have been made to feel they are being done a favour to exercise their right to know. Delays and denials have stretched credulity. Too many public servants have seen their role as protecting bureaucracy and political masters. Technology now permits the footprint of history to be erased and overwritten. Significant investments in the vast apparatus of their own communications by successive governments, in a form of self-congratulatory vanity press, have far outweighed any investment in ATIP.

I have been assisted in my perspective in the last decade by running for municipal office here in Vancouver in the mayoralty race. It might surprise you that I've gained a fuller appreciation of the perspective of the politician and the public and media environment that correctly gives rise in the era of social media to a defensiveness and a guardedness, to a lack of candour and a lack of acknowledgement of errors in judgment or decisions that went awry. I think I can speak more knowledgeably about where you sit, what conditions you endure and how it might affect what you wish to share with the public. I can understand the fear that comes with any environment of extensive disclosure, because it comes with admitting mistakes. Of course, everyone makes mistakes. That's why there are erasers on pencils. Even the Pope has given up on the claim of infallibility.

I would hope that you would also understand my appeal to the bigger picture, because the defensive culture of communications is a prime contributor to the suspicion and cynicism in our political systems that can give rise to the most vulgar of our social media and to appallingly low voter turnouts and participation in political parties. In denying access to the critical pathology of public policy, to the process of decision-making, media must resort to picking at the bones instead of the meat, which in turn cheapens our craft and our image. A few reforms might address both.

My own modest reform recommendations for advancement of the law arise from many of the basic impediments I've experienced.

First, there has to be an investment in resources to limit the delays in responding to requests. If government professes to subscribe to openness, it should also tell the public how much it spends on its own promotional publicity and communications, and then link that spending to the spending on providing better access to information service.

Proactivity is an important ingredient, but Bill C-58 takes only baby steps. Any reform ought to require proactive disclosure of a range of information in government, including internally conducted departmental audits 30 days after their completion, while the paint is still fresh, to understand, in something approaching real time, whether programs are actually value for money.

A second proactive area would include the simultaneous release of records—studies, correspondence, research, advocacy—that prepared departments and their ministers for policy announcements or the introduction of legislation, with an exemption, of course, for Privy Council confidences. For that matter, all contracted services to government ought to be subjected to the act's purview.

It is time for the blackout period on Queen’s Privy Council records to be at the most 15 years instead of 20, as is the case in my own province of British Columbia—or even 10. The longest political reign in my lifetime—that of Lester Pearson and Pierre Trudeau—barely reached 15 years. Disclosure of minutes and records from their earliest date would rarely touch upon a sitting administration, but the relevance of information withers with time.

My last recommendation for this review would see this committee call out the abuses of the letter and the spirit of the law across the public service: the use of personal email or encrypted apps for government communication, oral briefings instead of written reports and the vesting of copyright with contractors to avoid disclosure, among many other things. Reforming this law can’t extend into these traits, but a recommendation of a review of public service law could curtail these chronic problems.

Thank you so much for your time. I am happy to answer any questions you might have.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. LaPointe.

I'm glad Mr. Wernick had an extra minute to give you so that you could get in that last recommendation. It worked out well for the committee.

Here's what I'm proposing.

We have two qualified witnesses. I don't expect that we're going to have any interruptions today. What I'm proposing is a first round of six minutes each, a second round of five minutes each and then a potential third round of five, five and two and a half and two and a half. If everyone is okay with that, we can continue. There may be a need to not continue with that last round, but that's what I'm proposing today.

With that, we're going to go to Mr. Kurek first, for six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming and speaking to this committee. I really appreciate your expertise and experience.

My encouragement, as is always is the case—and I know for sure that you, Mr. Wernick, mentioned that you had sent in a brief, and Mr. Lapointe as well—is to please feel free to send further details to this committee so that we can do everything we can to try build a substantive report at its conclusion. Thank you in advance for that.

I have a question for both of you. I've started with each round of witnesses by asking them this question. It's simple. Is an effective access to information regime essential for a modern democracy?

I'm starting with you, Mr. Wernick.

You're on mute.

3:45 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

Yes, of course. I don't think I need the rest of the time. I think—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I'm sorry.

Mr. LaPointe—

3:45 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

There's feedback coming. I'm hearing feedback from the floor. Should I try again?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

You answered the question perfectly.

Mr. LaPointe, I'll go to you.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Editorial, Glacier Media; Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Business in Vancouver

Kirk LaPointe

Unquestionably, and I would say, particularly in light of an increased context in which governments are becoming more and more sophisticated at controlling messaging, that the public has an opportunity as part of its democratic exercise to avail itself of a right to know, and largely things that governments don't wish on any given day to necessarily disclose.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

For my next question, I will ask for maybe just a yes or a no or maybe a couple of seconds of expansion, just to keep it short.

This is for Mr. Wernick first and then Mr. LaPointe. Is Canada's system adequate, yes or no?

3:45 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

No.

I do hope that we're going to get to actually speak at a little bit more length about these issues—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

We'll get there. Don't worry.

3:45 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

No, of course not. It dates from the 1980s, and I've said in my opening statement that we need a transparency law for the 2020s and 2030s.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Mr. LaPointe, you're next.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Editorial, Glacier Media; Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Business in Vancouver

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Wernick, I'm curious to hear about this, because cabinet confidence is certainly an interesting and challenging subject. You highlighted in your opening statement that dynamic, that balance that needs to be found in ensuring that there's respect for the process but also in ensuring that Canadians have answers from their top elected officials. I'm wondering if you could expand a bit on what would be an appropriate balance to ensure accountability and access to cabinet confidence.

3:45 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

Citizens, taxpayers and voters have information on all of the outputs of government. They see the results of the decisions, the announcements, the procurement contracts, the awarded grants and contributions, the audits, the evaluations, the research studies and so on. All of the outputs of government and a lot of information about what government does are available to Canadians.

In fact, there's more information available to Canadians than probably at any time in our history. The frontier of the discussion is about the deliberative processes before decisions are taken. My point is that if there is not a degree of confidentiality for those deliberative process before a decision, you will impair the ability of cabinet to take decisions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Mr. LaPointe, would you have anything to add to that?

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Editorial, Glacier Media; Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Business in Vancouver

Kirk LaPointe

I would agree with Mr. Wernick that of course at the point of deliberations before decisions are reached, cabinet confidences are quite apt. I would argue, though, for an earlier disclosure of the inputs after the decisions are taken than there is today.

3:45 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I agree with Mr. LaPointe on a 10-year rule. Something like 10 or 12 would be perfectly adequate now.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

For my final question, Mr. Wernick, one concern that I've certainly found is that decisions are often made beyond the official briefing notes and the official correspondence. It was mentioned before about text messages, phone calls and messaging apps that can circumvent accountability mechanisms like access to information. I've requested audio recordings that were, in fact, promised and I have never received them.

In your unique experience in government, have you ever seen these other fora of communications detracting from the system's ability to ensure that there's that public access to information?

3:50 p.m.

Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I think the bigger issue, Mr. Kurek, is that there is an entire nervous system of political staffers who work for ministers in the Prime Minister's Office who are equal partners, and in some cases, the most important partners, in the decision-making process. You have an act that only covers the public service and that record is available after the fact.

The political side is basically under an invisibility cloak, hence my recommendation that the act be extended to taxpayer-funded staff who work for ministers.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

I'd like to inform the committee members that we received Mr. Wernick's documents, but that they have not yet been translated into French. That's a problem for today's meeting, but we will have the translated versions tomorrow.

Next up is Ms. Hepfner for six minutes.