Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's a fair point, Mr. Barrett.

I'll go to Mr. Green now.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do have a motion that has been sent to the clerk and I believe also to the P9s of members of the committee. It's a housekeeping issue. I think we've all received correspondence on some of the frustrations people are having around the scheduling.

Before I move this motion, for those who are watching, I want to say that this is not in any way, shape or form reflective of our clerk's attempts and abilities to schedule people. This is not in any way, shape or form an attempt to minimize the study or to undervalue the expert testimony. This is just a situation we have that's seasonal.

Mr. Chair, the motion is as follows:

That, in order to allow for witnesses to be scheduled with sufficient notice and time for preparation, the committee pause its study on the Access to Information until January 30, 2023; and, that the committee invite the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada, the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, and the Information Commissioner of Canada to appear as part of a committee study on supplementary estimates (B) 2022-23; and that the commissioners appear at committee no later than December 6, 2022.

For obvious reasons, Mr. Chair, we need to have the supplementary estimates dealt with here. This would be a good opportunity to invite these folks while we allow our clerk to go out across the country and adequately schedule subject matter expertise for our ATIP study in a way that I think is reflective of the seriousness and importance of the study.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green. The motion is in order.

There are a couple of issues I do want to bring up to you and to other members of the committee.

As I mentioned earlier, we do have a couple of ATIP study meetings that have scheduled witnesses to appear. These are witnesses who were asked to appear. The only time they could be scheduled was December 7, for example. We do have those meetings already in place.

The clarification I would need from you, Mr. Green, is whether you want all three of the commissioners to come in a singular meeting on supplementary estimates (B).

The other thing I would propose to you is that the deadline.... We don't know; it could be as early as later this week. The committee can always consider the subject of the supplementary estimates at a later date. We can do that.

I just need clarification from you, Mr. Green, on whether you want all three here at the same time or separately. We can accommodate to have all three of them here at the same time, but separately it would take up three different meetings.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

To your first point, I would say that I feel the ATIP study is best scheduled in a lexical order that helps us provide the most important primary testimony first. I find that it's helpful in studies, particularly of this nature, to be informed by subject matter expertise, government staff, ministers and that type of thing up front, and to then get into other, more ancillary witnesses.

I'm not sure that was the case—and I say that respectfully—in terms of today's intervention, so I would say that we do put it on pause until the new year and then allow the clerk and you, sir, to work out a work plan that has, to the best of our ability, a lexical order of operation.

As it relates to the commissioners, I'm certainly fine to have them all in one meeting, but I would leave that up to the discussion of the other committee members around the table.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The motion is on the floor for debate, but I'll go back to you.

This is where I need clarity, because we do have witnesses who are already scheduled to appear. Those schedules have been accommodated for December 5 and December 7. If with this proposal we put off these meetings, then we're also going to be putting off those witnesses, who, by my understanding, are anxious to appear and who have made their schedules available for those two dates. That's the challenge I have.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are they ministers who are coming?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

No.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are they senior government staffers who are coming?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I don't have their backgrounds in front of me, Mr. Green. Just give me a second.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I just got some clarification from the clerk.

We have senior government officials who are coming on December 5, first from Global Affairs Canada. On Wednesday, December 7, we have reporters who are coming to speak about the ATIP issue. There were attempts made to accommodate their schedules earlier. These were the earliest and most viable dates when they could come.

That's how the schedule was made out, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Then I would say, Mr. Chair, without trying to be difficult, by all means, if it's the will of the committee that we pursue those two days, that's fine.

I just received, like we all did, some frustration from the public that they felt this was being rushed and that folks weren't getting adequate notice. I wanted to go on the record today to assure people that this is not the case and that we will work through this study thoughtfully and give people the ability to prepare.

If you've already done that for those two days, then I would totally concede that point and be amenable to bumping the date within the context of this to allow for that to happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

Mr. Green, again, just for clarity, I am certainly not averse to inviting the commissioners. If we wanted to do so, we could probably do it on December 12 at our scheduled meeting, if you would like to do that. I can accept the motion, but “no later than December 6”.... I think if we put a date on it as December 12, why don't we look at that, then?

I see a thumbs-up from Mr. Green. I also see that Mr. Kurek's hand is up.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Yes, I just want to acknowledge that if we go too much longer here, I think there will be a resource issue, so I'd be happy to move an amendment that whatever the clerk feels and whatever is amenable to Mr. Green.... I agree with the spirit of his motion, however we ensure that we get that sorted and then make sure we're not taking away resources from other committees as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, Mr. Kurek. I was just talking to the clerk. Could you repeat what you said? I'm sorry about that.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Let's just get it sorted. I'm supportive of the motion. If an amendment is needed, count me in, as long as it's in the spirit of what Mr. Green's motion is. I'm concerned that if we drag this out too long, other committees will be affected.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

If it's okay with you, Mr. Green, we're looking at December 12 to have the commissioners come in to look at the supplementary estimates.

Is that correct?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Members are good with that.

I see your hand, Mr. Fergus.

The last thing I want to bring to the attention of the committee is that we received a letter from the commissioner on the new edition of the “Lobbyists' Code of Conduct”. It's not an order of reference from the House, but members are welcome to study that in the future if we need to. I know that the commissioner has made herself available, as I said, in December at some point. It's something to consider—maybe not right now, but later—and we may want to have the commissioner here to discuss that as well.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Are you going to be adjourning the meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I will be adjourning the meeting.

I thank everybody for their patience. This is my fault and I'll tell you why. It is because I was really benevolent with the time on that first panel. I was listening more than I was watching my clock. That won't happen again.

The meeting is adjourned.