Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

With that, we will go to Ms. Saks for six minutes.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dr. El Emam, for joining us today. From the get-go, I'd like to say that I'm sure the committee and my colleagues here would be more than happy to see your white paper recommendations that you referenced during your opening remarks, to help guide us and help us be best informed as we move forward.

You mentioned in key points in data collection in this forum that transparency is essential. You mentioned that aggregated sets and how they're collected and presented are also essential, and that private contractors are a part of the social good, that they're using the appropriate guardrails in working through that data and providing it for use.

We've already established that the government was transparent throughout this process, starting in March 2020, with its indications for use of data. We've heard from the commissioner of a published framework available—to answer Mr. Green's request for it—of how to best use anonymized and aggregated data. Thank you for clarifying the difference; it's very helpful.

Regarding the importance of contractors we work with to collect this data being part of the social good, would you say that Telus and BlueDot—and we've seen BlueDot's report, which has been submitted to the committee—are generally among those practising for the good in their provision of data?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

I don't have the details of what BlueDot and Telus have been using their data for, but the current case of the Public Health Agency using mobility data to understand transmission patterns is a reasonable use of data for public health surveillance purposes.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

You would say that, in this case with the pandemic and COVID-19, the use of aggregate data was for social good and a good purpose.

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

Yes. As mentioned at the committee meeting last week, many countries around the world are using mobility data for public health surveillance purposes. It was also used before the pandemic by the UN, for example, to track movement of individuals, so it's not uncommon to do so.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Correct.

For clarification, the purpose of this study was to try to understand if the data that PHAC received, both through BlueDot and Telus, met the privacy criteria that you discussed in making sure that it was aggregated and anonymized when it was received by PHAC. In that case, in terms of the risks you were talking about and my colleague Mr. Brassard mentioned, would PHAC, from the data it received, be able to reidentify the data?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

I wouldn't be able to give you that answer because I haven't looked at the data and haven't done that analysis, but I think that's the objective of the OPC's investigation.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Following along those lines, we've already discussed that the data is important for health research, and you've indicated that you've been quite supportive of that. Have you seen, in any of the public discussions and in what Dr. Tam has shared in terms of COVID-19 Tracker, anything that would raise alarm bells for you after your many years of working in this field?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

The information that was presented in terms of public health surveillance is typical for the kind of information that would be used by other public health agencies for that purpose.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

In this case, there have been a lot of numbers and information thrown around. I've heard 33 million. I think Telus would be thrilled to know they have 33 million customers. As far as I understood, the data collected from both Telus and BlueDot was more in the 14-million range, if that. Would that be a fair sampling of aggregate data that could be used on a nationwide scale by the Public Health Agency if it's aggregated and anonymized?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

If the objective was to do public health surveillance at a national level and if the data was distributed to have appropriate coverage, then yes, this would be a dataset useful for that purpose.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

You mentioned surveillance, but I'd like to clarify that this is not surveillance of individual Canadians; this is an understanding of datasets of movement. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

Yes, it's public health surveillance to understand the transmission patterns of COVID in this particular case.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

In this case, the Public Health Agency of Canada was not surveilling individual Canadians with the datasets that it received through BlueDot and Telus.

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

Again, I can't comment on exactly what they did with that data, but the public maps and reports that are available are at the aggregate level, and they do not pertain to individuals.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Then have we met the initial criteria here of transparency in the aggregated sets in sharing that with Canadians through COVID-19 Tracker and other methods?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

For the reported numbers of that level of aggregation, it doesn't seem to pertain to individuals, but getting from identifiable data to that, I can't comment on the process, or who has handled it and what changes were applied along the way.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Okay. Privacy is obviously a big concern for those of us on the committee and also for Canadians in making sure that we do get this right and that what PHAC has done has been along the guidelines of the framework that was presented by the commissioner.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

You're just about out of time, Ms. Saks. I'm not sure we even have time to tack a question onto that. In fact, you're a little over.

With that, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go to Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. El Emam, thank you for your insight.

Most importantly, thank you for not responding by confirming the findings conveyed to you as a question.

Have you ever worked for the Public Health Agency of Canada or the Government of Canada?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

I've been working with different departments of the government for almost two decades. I have worked with different parts of the government and Health Canada and the Public Health Agency during that period.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Of course. That is to be expected.

You mentioned that you were on a committee recently.

Were you recently invited to sit on a committee on behalf of the government or were you invited by other political parties?

[Dr. Khaled El Emam]

Which committee are you referring to?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You said earlier that you had talked about certain things recently at a committee meeting. I don't recall exactly what you said but I'm referring to what you said.