Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 30th, 2022

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, since there are two motions to study the same subject in depth, I'd like to know what Mr. Villemure thinks about it.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I like to think that the perspective can be different. The expertise I bring to the committee is a little bit different from that of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. We all agree that this is an important topic, and I would like us to have the opportunity to address such a complex issue from a different angle. I don't think that can be brushed aside.

Will the findings be the same? I don't think so, but if they are, we'll all be satisfied that an issue of this magnitude has been properly examined.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Fergus, I offered that up as a point of clarification for you from Mr. Villemure. I had already seen that there were no other hands up.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, my hand is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

It's up now, but it wasn't up earlier when I called for the vote. I want to make that perfectly clear. I see your hand now, but when I went to Mr. Fergus, the hand was not up.

You asked, as a point of clarification—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, respectfully, it's a little bit challenging sometimes with the room and the back-and-forth. Just for clarity, I hadn't realized you had called a vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Right.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I appreciate your point. It's just to clarify.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Mr. Villemure offered a point of clarification to you, Mr. Fergus. I'm going to accept that as a point of clarification.

I'm going to ask if we have consensus. If we don't have consensus, then I'm going to go to the vote. I'm going to ask the clerk to call the vote.

Madam Clerk—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Can I seek a point of order, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Just to clarify, Ms. Saks, maybe I did miss your hand. The clerk had seen your hand, so I want to make sure that if you have something to say, I give you the opportunity to say it. Please go ahead.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

Just to clarify, I don't believe you actually called the vote. I don't recall hearing it. That aside, I appreciate our being able to walk back the time.

I want to lean in a bit on the concern of doubling. I also appreciate the unique perspective and expertise from my colleague Mr. Villemure as a professor of ethics. There's no question that's extremely valuable.

I had a point of clarification with him. There's nothing preventing him from actually going to PROC, participating in the discussions there and offering that lens within a full and comprehensive study at that committee. In that way we're not wasting valuable House resources and time, and what's happening in this committee. I've done it many times. I've joined committees on pieces of legislation or issues of interest in which I have expertise.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I would like Mr. Villemure to let me know if he has actually considered the ability to attend and participate in other committees that are availed to him as a member of this chamber. We've done that quite collaboratively on other tables. I'm not really sure if he has considered that so that we can actually focus on the work of the committee here. It seems that PROC is the appropriate place for this study, and I'd like to ask that question.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Villemure, do you want to explain that?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I think the committee is the right place to look at this issue. Furthermore, the motion is broader than the one presented to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

I see Mr. Fergus' hand.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Am I allowed?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Yes. I allowed Ms. Saks, so as far as I'm concerned, the debate is continuing right now. If you have anything additional you'd like to add, Mr. Fergus, please go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to speak to Monsieur Villemure.

Mr. Villemure, the question I'd like to ask is, is there anything you're not happy with?

In terms of this study, are there any witnesses who weren't invited who should have been? The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has not yet completed its study. Is there an angle that we're not looking at that you would like us to look at? If so, we can do that.

Frankly, what is the point of doing work twice? You said you wanted to introduce a new approach, but you didn't define it. Anything is always possible in the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. We're halfway there, we can always add more. We've just added four more meetings on this. It's a very serious issue.

I can't refer to what we discussed in camera, but I can tell you that our schedule is already quite full. It's no secret that we have to work on other issues. I don't think we can do anything else. However, if there is something else we can do, Ms. Gaudreau and I need to know.

We could easily add that to the agenda of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. No one is denying that this is a very important issue. I personally supported the other motion calling for this study. It makes no sense to have two different committees doing the same study.

Those of you who work with words and have a sense of ideas, if you have something to say, please make it specific. It will allow me to make sure that these issues are addressed, that they are discussed before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Mr. Chair, I'm asking my colleagues not to duplicate the work we're doing elsewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

Mr. Villemure, do you have anything to say? There are two hands raised.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'll hear the other comments first.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

It's 6:30 p.m.

The meeting was supposed to finish at 6:30, but we're going to continue.

I have Ms. Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I will be frank. I don't feel like I've gotten clarity on the justification for doubling today, but that being said, I don't want to prevent us from having a complete discussion on it. I recognize House resources, our translators and the late hours on a Wednesday, and I'm wondering if there is a contemplation or a willingness of the committee to adjourn now and continue this discussion in our subsequent meeting, just because I still have questions I want to ask about this.

I'm a bit frustrated, frankly, Mr. Chair. We're already doubling up on OGGO's ArriveCAN. I'll be frank: There's work we need to get done here, and it just keeps getting pushed off, with a doubling of resources. I don't think it does justice to the skills and the expertise of this committee to hold up what is already being done in other committees when there are other ways to work among colleagues in the various places where we sit in committee work.

I'd like to put that out as a friendly recommendation, although I do see Mr. Green's hand up. I know Ms. Hepfner's hand is up. I leave that to the will of the chair to decide how we move forward, but otherwise we're going to be—

I see there are more questions.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I've not heard you formally move to adjourn debate on the issue. In the absence of that, I did see Mr. Villemure's hand up and I will go to him first.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to call for a vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Do you want a vote for the question on the motion?