Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Perfect. Thank you, Chair.

I would like to continue in the same vein of putting up this study a little more. What we have right now is a focus on 2021, 2019, but really if we are going to look at foreign interference, we know it has happened for a lot longer than that and I would go back further.

Just to save you all the debate, should I just read what I proposed to amend?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The motion as amended is not prescriptive to any particular date. It doesn't say 2021. It doesn't—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay, I would like to make it more prescriptive in my amendment.

At the end of the whole paragraph, after the words “that arise from this foreign interference”, I would add: That the committee review the work of the previous Ministers of Democratic Institutions related to the last five federal elections to combat foreign interference.

This way it's a non-partisan look at the whole of government and what has happened since 2008.

We would go back to when there was a previous government running the country and really look at this issue. It would be non-partisan. It would be more wide-ranging and we'd really get to the bottom of it.

You might be interested to note that the last two Ministers of Democratic Institutions for Steven Harper were Tim Uppal and Pierre Poilievre. It is interesting. It does go back further.

I think that the more recent work of our Ministers of Democratic Institutions is all public. It's online. You can go on and search for it, but going back further it's more opaque and it's harder to find that information.

This is why I'm proposing this amendment, and I look forward to further debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Would you do me a favour and read that out one more time for me, please?

I see your hand up on the amendment, Mr. Green.

Go ahead and read it out one more time for me.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

At the end of the paragraph, after the word “interference”, I would add “That the committee review the work of the previous Ministers of Democratic Institutions related to the last five federal elections to combat foreign interference”.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you for that.

We have an amendment on the floor. This is pretty significant to the amendment that was made and as it relates to the motion as it is now.

I would like to suspend, so that we can send the amendment to the rest of the committee. We'll suspend for however long it takes.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to call the meeting back to order.

The amendment by Ms. Hepfner has been circulated to the committee members. I remind everyone that we have until 5:30, so if we can dispose of this quickly, I would appreciate that. If not, I understand.

Mr. Green, you are first up on the amendment.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm trying to figure out—I'm not decided yet—whether or not the filibuster is going to be worse than whatever other amendment the government side has coming next.

Look, I think this is a redundant motion. I think that within our committee processes we have the full ability to call for whatever witnesses we want. Surely, our analysts would include the work of previous committees. We'll see. We'll see how many other amendments they have to offer.

I don't think this is necessary in any stretch of the imagination. I'm starting to wonder. I should have known when there was a unanimous vote to actually continue this debate that something was coming our way. Here we are.

I look forward to hopefully getting this motion passed. Again, when we come back to picking the witnesses, then absolutely, move a motion to call Pierre Poilievre and Tim Uppal to have them testify. I mean, knock yourselves out.

Right now, I feel like we're just going to see a series of more amendments that might take us off the main motion, which is really what I'm looking for.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

I do not see any other hands up. We will proceed to a vote on the amendment.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The amendment fails. We are back on the main motion.

Go ahead, Ms. Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the effort to make this quick and to find collaboration among all of us here, it's been made clear by many members of the committee that this issue is important to them. I think it's an issue that's really important to Canadians.

That's why I would like to propose an amendment “That this study be the committee's next order of business, and that the committee undertake no other business until the study is complete.”

I'd like to just clarify this. We dismissed witnesses today in order to debate this, so it's clearly an issue of concern to my colleague from the Bloc and my Conservative colleagues across the way. All parties agreed to table this study. We're here. We're debating it. We're making sure that we get a study that is comprehensive.

As I mentioned in our last meeting, I'm not a fan of doubling up work. I would like to see work—and I'm willing to stay all night to do it—that makes sure we really get through what Canadians are asking us and instill trust in our democratic institutions. I think that's what this really is about.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Can I just interrupt for a second?

You put an amendment on the floor.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Yes, I can read it into the record, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

If you can read it again, I would appreciate that just so that members are clear.

I'm not going to seek—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I have it in French, if needed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

If you want to distribute it, that would be great.

Once the amendment is on the floor, then we'll open it up for debate.

You started debate before the amendment had been acknowledged. I want to make that clear.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I'll send it right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We'll get that distributed to members of the committee as quickly as we can.

I'm not going to suspend.

While we wait for that to be distributed in both languages to the committee, I'm going to encourage you to continue, Ms. Saks, if you want.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

As I mentioned, Mr. Chair, in the PROC committee both the Bloc and the Conservatives voted against a motion to extend the foreign interference study by four meetings. They wanted to focus specifically on the CCP interference. We've gotten some agreement here about widening and broadening the scope of the study and making sure that we get a comprehensive view, both historically and what's currently happening; so there clearly is an interest in prioritizing this.

There's clearly an interest in looking at this in depth. Since it seems to be a priority for me, colleagues here and across the way, I really feel strongly that this is the business of the day that we should be engaged in. We should get through it and leave no stone unturned, as many of us like to do in this committee, to make sure we have a comprehensive and fulsome review. That's really all I have to say on the subject. I'm happy to open it to debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Saks.

On the amendment I have Mr. Fergus followed by Ms. Khalid.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Actually, Mr. Chair, aside from what my colleague said on this seeming to be an important file and that we should proceed right away, to be consistent with that I will stop talking.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I would just reinforce the fact that we dismissed so many important witnesses today because there was a will by Monsieur Villemure, respectfully, to really bring up and study this issues. I think Ms. Saks' amendment really gets to the crux and the heart of what this committee wants.

The way we've been functioning so far is that we're doing a little bit of an ATIP study, a little bit on ArriveCAN and we're thinking about the Lobbying Commissioner, but I think if we really are serious about making some strong, fulsome recommendations to the government with respect to the foreign interference level, the danger and the risks here in Canada, we need to show that by making sure that we're prioritizing this study, that we're moving aside all other things on the agenda until we get to the bottom of what is so important.

We hear it in question period, we hear it from the media and we hear it from the members opposite—and from ourselves—just how important this issue is, so let's put everything aside and actually do this study. Let's bring out those witnesses. Let's put forward some concrete recommendations on what the next step going forward is. Let's get to the bottom of this issue, Chair.

I really think we should be prioritizing this and I'm looking forward to the support of all colleagues—especially in the opposition—to ensure that we are prioritizing this the way they've been wanting it to be prioritized over the past couple of weeks.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We have gone from having a “sterile” debate, which, in my opinion, is a value judgment, to having “a very important one”. We have come a long way.

We are talking about the integrity of the State and we all agree here that it is important. I moved the motion initially so that we could have another perspective, another point of view. I believe I have some expertise in this type of exercise, if I may say so.

I hope that our colleagues' opposite are not able to dilute the essence of the motion through a series of amendments. This has not happened yet. However, I would like to go beyond the filibustering and get to our goal.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Barrett.