Evidence of meeting #52 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Very quickly, Mr. Beeby, I'll ask you two questions, and they're related, so I'd appreciate it if you could be pretty quick.
Recently, the Ford government made a decision to develop Ontario's greenbelt. Is the decision not enough? Do you need to know what went into the deliberations that led to that decision?
As an Individual
Yes, you do need to know, because you need to know whether there's been undue influence on cabinet by corporations, developers, or whatever. Of course, that's part of the concern that citizens have about their governments. Are they listening to the wrong people instead of citizens?
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
On that point, the human factor is really important here.
In your testimony, you described the importance of having the Information Commissioner be the arbiter of what should be considered cabinet confidence. Isn't that just making everything subject to the quality of the Information Commissioner?
As parliamentarians, if we're going to propose changes, we're supposed to propose changes that are based on a principle. What principle would you like us to consider?
As an Individual
On that issue, if the record contains deliberations, then protect it. If the record is merely information provided to inform those deliberations, then do not protect it.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
All right.
To go back to the first example, do you think that the officials would have had that basic information saying, “sell the greenbelt”, or would that have been more part of that deliberative process?
As an Individual
No, typically cabinet would be presented with options: “If you do this, then it's this. If you do B, then it's C.” It's not only possible, but it's common that cabinets review information that is not urging a particular course. It's the job of cabinet to make the decision. These are records that merely inform and give background data.
In defence of the Information Commissioner, she is appointed by Parliament. She is a high-quality individual. I have a lot of faith in Parliament's ability to pick quality candidates to make those hard decisions about what's in and out in cabinet.
Conservative
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Yes, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to move that we reopen the debate where we left off at our last meeting.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
We have a motion to resume debate where we left off in the last meeting.
Do I see any objection from the committee on that?
(Motion agreed to)
There's no need for a vote. We have consensus.
We're going to continue the debate. Before we do, I just want to say thank you to our witnesses for coming today. You shared some extremely valuable information with the committee.
I apologize to those who were online for the technical difficulties. If there is anything that you may have missed today, I would invite you to provide it in writing to the committee clerk and we can consider that within our deliberations.
Again, I want to say thank you on behalf of the committee and Canadians, as well. Thank you.
I'm going to dismiss the witnesses. We'll continue on.
Mr. Fergus, when we left, you had the floor on an amendment. I'd like to go back to you on that, please.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Mr. Chair, I believe there have been discussions among all parties. I don't want to prolong the debate. I think there is a general consensus. I hope that will continue.
I'd like to put the question on it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Is there any discussion on the amendment?
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We're on the main motion now, as amended.
I will remind the committee that we do have a work plan that we are still following. We have the commissioner coming on the supplementary estimates (B) on Monday. We do have a witness appearing next Wednesday. That may take us up until the new year. This study may not continue until that point.
Mr. Fergus, go ahead.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Again, Mr. Chair, I'd like to reaffirm to all members that I think there's a confidence that the spirit will be reflected, not necessarily the letter. We offer that discretion to you, to make sure that we do the business of our committee that has already been planned first, and then we'll move on.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay, I appreciate that. As you can imagine, these are difficult days leading up to Christmas, trying to get witnesses, for the clerk and the analysts. I do appreciate a little bit of latitude.
Is there any further discussion on the motion?
Seeing none, do we have consensus on the motion as amended?
(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
It's approved unanimously. Thank you for that.
Is there any other business? I don't see any.
I will move to adjourn the meeting. Thank you.