Evidence of meeting #55 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl
Nancy Bélanger  Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 55 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order on June 23, 2022, and therefore members can attend in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me. Please note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to fully participate.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by this committee on Wednesday, November 30, 2022, the committee is undertaking its study on the third edition of the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses today. We have Ms. Nancy Bélanger, the Commissioner of Lobbying.

Welcome on this Friday morning.

Madam Clerk, are all headsets working properly for interpretation?

8:45 a.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Nancy Vohl

Yes, committee members are properly equipped. Since the witnesses are in the room, no sound tests were required.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you.

Mr. Villemure asks about that at every meeting. That is why I checked.

I would like to welcome Ms. Normandin, who is replacing Mr. Villemure today.

Mr. Cannings, welcome to you this morning as well. I'd also like to welcome Mr. Dalton, as well as Ms. Koutrakis on behalf of Ms. Khalid.

Ms. Bélanger, the floor is yours. Thank you for being here this morning.

Please proceed.

8:45 a.m.

Nancy Bélanger Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and committee members.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct, which I submitted to you on November 15, along with a document explaining the changes.

I am joined by Scott Whamond, our office’s policy analyst.

As Commissioner of Lobbying, it is my responsibility to develop the Code which defines the standards of ethical behaviour required of registered lobbyists. It contributes, along with other ethical regimes, to enhancing public confidence in federal government institutions.

My experience administering the 2015 Code highlighted challenges in applying its rules of conduct and in providing guidance to lobbyists. In updating the Code, I aimed to address these challenges by using clear and plain language, by focusing on lobbyists' actions without importing various ethics regimes, and by creating a comprehensive code which eliminated the need to consult separate guideline documents to define the key concepts.

We conducted three rounds of public consultations over a two-year period. Overall, we received positive feedback on the new code, particularly with respect to the clarity of its objectives and its rules of conduct.

I received passionate but widely divergent feedback on two issues. These were political work and the value of allowable hospitality.

On political work, the 2015 code prevents a lobbyist who participated in a political activity from lobbying the official and their staff who benefited from this participation for a specified period. There is no definition of political activity or what is meant by a specified period. A separate guidance document suggests that the cooling-off period for higher-risk political activities should be equivalent to a full election cycle. There is no specified period for lower-risk activities; there is only a recommendation that lobbyists exercise caution if they are frequently involved in such activities.

During the consultation, some stakeholders suggested that after participating in important political work, the cooling-off period should be at least 10 years, while others argued that any such restriction could infringe on a lobbyist's charter rights. This is a concern I shared.

The updated rule was carefully crafted to achieve its objective of restricting lobbying if a sense of obligation could reasonably be seen to exist and to provide the greatest clarity for lobbyists, all while complying with the charter.

The new rule defines and provides examples of the political roles that could reasonably be seen to create a sense of obligation. It also excludes from its application certain forms of political participation. The rule does not prohibit lobbyists from engaging in political work, but prevents them from lobbying officials who benefited from this work and their close associates. The rule also sets out a cooling-off period of one or two years, based on the significance of the political work or the level of interaction with the official.

When considering other regimes and the five-year restriction on lobbying that applies to senior officials when they leave office, I believe these cooling-off periods are reasonable and appropriate.

I am confident that as currently drafted, the rule is on solid constitutional footing. I have real concerns, however, that extending the cooling-off period beyond two years creates risks with respect to charter compliance, particularly given that the code is a non-statutory instrument.

With respect to hospitality, the 2015 Code prevents a lobbyist from offering gifts to an official that the official is not allowed to accept. This rule therefore requires the commissioner to defer to various federal authorities governing the ethics of such office holders to determine whether lobbyists can offer hospitality. The new rule allows lobbyists to know when they can offer it and the permissible value, regardless of other regimes.

Some argued that lobbyists should not be allowed to offer any hospitality. Others said having a monetary value added to clarity, but some argued it was too low. Some believed the status quo should be maintained.

I determined that a $40 limit for food and beverage, excluding taxes, was reasonable, with an annual limit of $80. The low value amount is based on federal hospitality standards, recent average restaurant meal costs and the impact of inflation over the past two years.

In my view, this rule will promote equitable access for all lobbyists and avoid creating a sense of obligation on the part of the official.

Although it is not possible to anticipate all scenarios, a lot of thought went into revising the ethical standards that federally registered lobbyists must follow.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I look forward to your questions and your comments and I welcome any suggestions to improve the code before I finalize it.

Merci.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Ms. Bélanger.

We now are going to move to our six-minute round of questioning. We're going to start off with Mr. Kurek.

I will note for the benefit of the committee that I have spoken to Mr. Kurek. His flight was cancelled and the only piece of clothing he has is the T-shirt that he's wearing. I'm sure there's more.

Mr. Kurek, you have six minutes, sir.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the benefit of the committee, I am wearing more than just a T-shirt. I certainly didn't expect when getting on an airplane yesterday that my outfit would be something that would possibly be referenced in parliamentary proceedings.

Thank you, Commissioner, for joining us here today. Virtually everybody I speak with would agree that we need to have a regime that ensures that there is not undue influence exercised by those who would attempt to manipulate officials, politicians and the like to their benefit.

I went through some recent news stories, including some very public examples, in which there were people who were involved in government contracts, people who work in consultancy fees and a whole host of others. As I was searching through the lobbyist registry, those individuals' names were not on it. They don't fall into being registered lobbyists, yet it's quite clear.... As an example, both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister referenced very clearly how a particular individual who's been in the news—Mr. Barton—was recruited because of his contact list.

I'm curious if you could outline how that right balance is found, because when I searched through the list, these names were not found on it.

8:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

Thank you for your question.

Obtaining contracts is not something that is regulated in the Lobbying Act, except for consultants. If organizations and corporations hire a consultant to negotiate a contract for them, the consultant would need to register with our registry under the Lobbying Act. However, any communications with respect to contracts for organizations and corporations are not part of the Lobbying Act. That is something we likely should be looking at if ever the Lobbying Act is looked at and reviewed.

I would note that in British Columbia—and you should have a look at that regime—any conversation that is beyond the regular procurement process, which is very much in the public domain, requires registration from organizations and corporations. Right now, that's not regulated at the federal level.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Certainly it speaks to one of the issues of Canadians simply wanting to be able to trust that their officials have not had undue influence exerted and whatnot.

One of the challenges.... I know you spent a lot of time moving the code to plain language so that it's more clearly understood and helping to find that right balance. You outlined in your report how you heard examples from both sides.

Can you explain to the committee how this would help build public confidence in the system to ensure that Canadians know their officials are not under undue influence?

8:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

If I understand your question correctly, are you asking how the current code that I am proposing would help to benefit, or is it adding—?

Okay.

Basically, right now, the rules are simply not clear, and because they're not clear, it is very difficult to regulate, investigate and provide advice. I think that adding clarity.... From the moment that I was appointed, back in 2018, lobbyists would tell me that the code was not clear. They didn't know what they could or could not do. We would issue guidance, but I don't know how I could find someone in breach of a guidance that in and of itself was not very clear.

I'm hoping that we've struck the right balance, considering that our code is, I think, currently one of the best in the world. Now we're simply going to raise that bar even more by adding clarity.

We've looked at what exists in the world and we've looked at what exists in the other provinces, and in fact there are not too many codes of conduct. Based on the submissions, if anyone takes the time to look at what's on our website, I think we have struck the right balance.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you, Commissioner.

I'm wondering if you could provide that to us, because I know there have been discussions around the charter compliance issue, specifically around political campaigning.

I would like to ask a question about the actual lobbying.

Over the course of COVID, approximately half a trillion dollars were spent on a COVID response. Have you seen any significant trends that have reshaped the way you look at lobbying in Canada over the last number of years?

9 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

Certainly the pandemic has increased the number of communications, mainly because people needed to be heard, and all of you did open your doors, so the numbers have gone up and continue to go up.

One of the requirements under the act is to actually enter every time you have an oral and arranged communication. Every virtual meeting is oral and arranged in advance. That had to be inserted in the registry, and it has gone up. The issues that concern Canadians are usually the issues that are most lobbied. Health, environment, and the economy are the three usual topics. Lobbying flows with what is of concern for Canadians.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

That concludes your six-minute round, Mr. Kurek.

Thank you, Ms. Bélanger. Next we're going to continue online with Ms. Hepfner. You have six minutes.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Commissioner, for being here today and taking all these questions.

I would like to go back to something my colleague Mr. Kurek said about consultants not being on the registry. Could you clarify for the committee whether companies that are responding to RFPs and are bidding on government contracts are required to register as lobbyists?

9 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

Just to clarify, consultants who are government relations officials, if they are hired to negotiate a contract—

9 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

On a point of order—

9 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

—for an organization, they would have to register—

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Ms. Hepfner, please go ahead.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

I'm sorry. I was calling a point of order because I could not hear the floor, but I think it's because I was not muted. I did hear her eventually, but I missed the first part of what she said.

Can you restart my time?

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I'm not going to start at six minutes, but I paused it and I'll allow Ms. Bélanger to answer your question. Then I'll restart your time.

9 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

With respect to consultants, if they are hired to negotiate a contract for an organization or corporation, they would need to register. Organizations and corporations that follow any public process.... Even if it's not a public process, any contracting is currently not required to be registered under the registry.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thank you for that clarification.

My next question is around volunteers.

I was just recently elected in 2021, but I think all of the elected officials around this table, virtually and in person, appreciate the value of volunteers to the political system.

You need lots of volunteers. They're really important. I feel it's a way for people to get involved at a grassroots level in the political system, understand it better and have their say and just get a feel for it. I think it's a really important part of the process.

I would like to know whether those people, those normal Canadians who just get involved and go knocking on doors at election time, would be affected by the update in this code. Is the sense of obligation a factor in those cases, in those basic grassroots, political things that we see every day?

9 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

The code for lobbyists is only applicable to registered lobbyists. Any individual who volunteers for you who is not a lobbyist is not subject to this code. It's really only for the individuals listed in a registry.

If they are registered to lobby and they do volunteer for you, there might be some consequences under the code, because they would be subject to the code. If they go and lobby you when you know they have volunteered for you, there's certainly an appearance, possibly, of a sense of obligation. It will depend on what they have done.

I have the rule to regulate lobbyists, and you have your own rules under your own code of conduct to ensure that you don't improperly further the interests of individuals whom you may know who may have helped you.

It's a whole. It's from the lobbyists' side and from the public office holders' side. It really will depend on the facts of the case and what they have done and if they're registered to lobby.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

Okay.

In general it wouldn't be a disadvantage to volunteer for an MP because then you could never go and ask that MP for a favour, or for help, or be seen to be receiving services that other people wouldn't get from that member of Parliament.

Could you clarify that?

9:05 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Nancy Bélanger

If the individual is a registered lobbyist, they do need to be vigilant about whom they go to help and who they're going to lobby afterwards. They should be calling my office.

If I can give you some stats, there have been two elections since 2017, since I've been in my position. There have only been 40 calls to my office about the application of the current rule on political activity. Only 29 of them have been from people who are thinking of playing an important role and wondering about the consequences.

Considering that there are 8,000 lobbyists and that over 300 of you are getting help from many, the fact that I'm only getting 29 calls about playing an important role.... I don't know if it's a prevalent issue or if people are just keeping it under the radar. I just don't know.

I'm hoping these rules will send a signal that they need to be careful and need to call us to get some help.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

Very good.

I would like to go back to your statement about Canada's code being among “the best in the world”. Can you elaborate more and talk about peer countries and what sorts of differences there are?