Evidence of meeting #56 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
To be honest, Ms. Lantsman, I'm not aware of any, but it also strikes me as not being uncommon that ministers would seek communications advice.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
But you've never seen it in your career, in the time you were at Public Safety or before that at Finance. I'm not sure where you were before that.
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I was at Finance for a very long time.
No, I was not privy to the operations of the minister's office and indeed to communications in a more specific sense.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Mr. Pilon, I'll ask you the same question, given your role in procurement.
Is it unusual to see a sole-source contract for communications help in a department with more than a hundred communications staffers and with an exempt staff of potentially four or five, initiated by the minister and carried out by the department? Is that unusual?
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
It is not. In my many years of procurement in various departments, I have seen many contracts of a sole-source nature or a competitive nature from ministers' offices. I wouldn't say directly from a minister, but from a minister's office this is quite common, actually.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Would it be unusual from a minister herself, in your experience?
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes. We usually deal with the office and not with the minister.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Deputy Minister Stewart, when you came to the department, were you briefed on this earlier than, let's say, your committee experience?
February 7th, 2023 / 4:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I was not briefed on it.
There was a very brief mention made that there was an examination being undertaken by the Ethics Commissioner, but only a mention.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
In the time before this briefing, did you ask any questions about the issue?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
No.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
I'll ask Mr. Pilon this. Is there a process after these services have been rendered that a department takes on to see if there were any materials or if the service provider was in accordance with the contractual obligations or, frankly, if they did anything at all?
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes. In the contracting process, there is usually an individual identified as either the project authority or sometimes the technical authority, and that person's role in the contracting process is to monitor progress once the contract is awarded and to ensure that the goods or services are delivered in accordance with the initial request and the contract.
That person then certifies that the services were rendered, and we proceed from there—
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes. We do have knowledge that the receipt of service, in this case, was confirmed by the chief of staff in the minister's office, and we do have approval on the invoice that the services were rendered.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
There is the chief of staff and the minister who asked for the sole-source contract who tell the department that the services have been rendered. Do they tell the department anything else?
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I would be guessing at that point, but I'm sure there were communications with respect to the regular...whether there was receipt of an invoice and whether the invoice had the proper—
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
I'm sorry, but I'm not asking about the payment. I don't doubt that the government pays its bills on time.
I'm asking whether there are points around the services rendered. Were any materials shared? Was there actually a service given, given that the minister asked for this contract as a sole source, which is unusual in your view, and then it was confirmed by the chief of staff to the minister, who is an exempt staffer?
I just want to make sure that we have that straight.
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Sure.
What I can say is that the scope of work as outlined referred to media sessions for ministerial staff.
4:15 p.m.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes, it was for two sessions. That's correct.
In that scope of work, there was an outline of certain things—and I'm going by memory. There was a description of the services outlining what exactly would be delivered. This is what was confirmed by the chief of staff afterwards.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Does the department ask follow-up questions beyond whether the service was rendered? Two sessions were given. Was that it?
Do we, as the Government of Canada, do anything else at a departmental level to check whether services were actually rendered for the amount of money that was paid to this sole-source contractor that was asked for by the minister?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I think the best answer to your question is that there is no contract-by-contract verification, but we have an audit process. It periodically samples contracts issued on behalf of the department and paid for by the department to ensure that value was provided and that the appropriate amount was paid.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Stewart and Mr. Pilon, I would like to thank you, as well, and acknowledge your long-standing work in serving Canadians.
Mr. Pilon, I have several questions for you.
You say you have a long history of working in procurement and services in the federal government. How many years have you been doing that?
