Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 57 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Therefore, members can attend in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me. Please note that in that case, we may need to suspend for a few minutes, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, January 31, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the subject matter of the report of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner entitled “The Ng Report”.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing you that our witnesses appearing virtually have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I would now like to welcome our witness for the first hour today, the Honourable Mary Ng, Minister of International Trade, Export Promotion, Small Business and Economic Development.

Minister, you have five minutes to address the committee. Please start.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Minister of International Trade]

Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me to appear here today.

I want to start by providing just a few words of context on this matter and my own personal perspective on all that has transpired. Before I get to any of that, let me be clear in saying once again that I made a mistake.

My office contracted services from someone close to me. It was a friend. It was someone capable, an expert in her field and qualified. However, because of our friendship, I should have recused myself from any and all dealings.

For that, I have apologized to my colleagues, the House and the public.

I want to start this appearance by apologizing here again directly to the members of this committee.

In February 2019, my office arranged with the department for media and presentation training for me and my staff. The services were provided by Pomp & Circumstance, one of the country's leading communications firms. It was co-founded by Amanda Alvaro, a well-known communications professional. The value of the contract was below the threshold set in part 7.1.1 of Treasury Board guidelines, and I believed we were in full compliance with all relevant rules.

A year later, in March 2020, we turned to Pomp & Circumstance again for support. It was a time of enormous urgency, at the beginning of the pandemic, and demand for information about new emergency programs was intense, especially for Canada's small businesses. Departmental resources were clearly going to have to be supplemented. We relied on Pomp & Circumstance to help us communicate details about these supports, to help with media appearances, to support communications planning and in particular to provide social media strategy, design and execution.

Again, the contract amounts were below the threshold established by Treasury Board guidelines, and I believed we were acting in full compliance. That was my mistake.

In fact, in both instances, the Ethics Commissioner determined that it was my failure to recuse that resulted in his findings. It was not the contract amounts or the use of a qualified professional firm, and not the work itself, all of which was completed well and under severe timelines. The Ethics Commissioner's determination was that it was my failure to recuse because of my personal friendship with Ms. Alvaro. That was the issue, and I accept his ruling.

All contract awards were publicly disclosed. I co-operated fully with the commissioner's examination. I have accepted the findings. I've implemented new protocols in my office and within the department. I have apologized.

I recognize that my mistake means I will have to work even harder. All I can say is that I am committed to doing that hard work.

I hope that people will see and recognize that my efforts are sincere.

Now I would be pleased to take any questions from the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister.

For the purposes of the committee, we have a few substitutes this morning. Ms. Lantsman is here. Mr. Dalton will be here. Ms. Koutrakis is here. We have some members on Zoom as well.

We'll begin with the first round of questioning for six minutes. I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Minister, for joining us in person this morning.

As you know, we have some pretty tight timelines for our questions, so I'll try to move through this quickly.

How often did you and Ms. Alvaro discuss communications and media?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

She and I started working together in the Ontario government in the education minister's office at the time. She was the communications director. I was the policy director. Over the course of time that I have known her, she and I have talked about communications, about politics and about a whole range of issues.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In your time as a minister, would you say it was quite often?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

No, I wouldn't say that at all. From time to time, she and I would have a general conversation, but we're friends, so we would have a general conversation about a lot of things.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

When your deputy minister appeared, we were told that your department has about 100 communications public servants. Is that correct?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

If that's what the deputy shared, that would be correct.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How many political exempt or political communications staff do you have who report to your chief?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

There are four.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Are they all pretty good at their jobs?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I would say that everyone is professional and capable, and they carry out their duties well.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

At about 9:45 last night, members of this committee received the documents we requested, so at about 10:30 last night our staff would have been looking them over in anticipation of your appearance this morning.

Did you know that they were going to be tabled last night?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I did not. I understood that we would be in compliance with the request of this committee.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Indeed you were. The time of day, an 8:45 committee appearance, I would characterize as unfortunate.

Do you understand that disclosure to be complete—that it includes, as the document production order listed, 100% of the work product in your two contracts with Pomp & Circumstance and Ms. Alvaro?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

What I know is that we are in compliance with the motion of this committee with respect to document production.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Of the work that Ms. Alvaro did for you, what could you characterize as work that the four political staff or the 100 public servants could not do for you or did not have the expertise to do? Perhaps you could answer in 30 seconds or less.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I wouldn't characterize it as expertise, because I think the political staff have expertise. I think the department has expertise.

I would situate you in March 2020 at the beginning of the pandemic. I think it was all hands on deck with every resource available to help Canadians and to get supports out to Canadians. Part of that was helping Canadian businesses, particularly small businesses, understand the range of supports and help that was available. It was all hands on deck and then some.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In anticipation of and in preparation for your visit today and your interactions with the media, did you chat with your friend Ms. Alvaro?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

It's been established that Amanda and I are friends. However, we decided at the very beginning, when this matter started, that she and I would not speak about this matter and that we would allow the work of the commissioner and all the necessary process to take place, and we would respect that, and we have.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It's really important that Canadians be able to have confidence in their public institutions and their public officials. Incidents in which members of the public service or designated public office holders are found to have broken procurement rules damage Canadians' confidence in the institution they work for, the department they work for. They undermine, I think, the Canada brand.

Do you think that when federal ethics or procurement rules are violated, there should be restitution made, that taxpayers should be made whole for the wrongdoing?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I can speak to my circumstance as it relates to this particular matter that the commissioner examined. As I said in my opening remarks, I believed that I and we did comply with the rules, because the requirements for Treasury Board guidelines were fulfilled.

The commissioner indeed ruled that it was my recusal that was the error, which I accept. That I accept, and I've put measures in place to ensure that this does not happen again.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, I have 30 seconds left and I have two questions.

Furthering the interest of your friend is not in compliance with the rules. With respect to maintaining public confidence, do you think that taxpayers should be reimbursed? Do you think that to ensure Canadians' confidence and to uphold ministerial accountability, you should remain in cabinet? Do you think your resignation is warranted in this case?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I think that in this case I've already said that I have made an error and that I have a lot of work to do. I have taken active steps to ensure that something like this will not happen again.

I hope that Canadians will see my efforts in serving them. I do believe that the position I occupy is a privilege. My work—my continued hard work for Canadians—I commit to do, and I hope that Canadians will see my sincerity in that work.