Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[W. Scott Thurlow]

That said, I think the condition precedent that underlined the consultation, which was that the rules on political contributions to these candidates were confusing, was kind of bouleversé, to use the right word, because it's more complicated now than it was when it started.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Conacher, you have 15 to 20 seconds.

[Duff Conacher]

The commissioner said, when she testified before you, that she listened to everybody and has carefully crafted these rules and balanced what she heard. She didn't listen to us or the 15 or so other groups that sent her letters last June saying to extend the cooling-off period for significant political activities. She's reduced it to zero. That's not a balance going from four to zero.

It will allow everyone—lobbyists—to do pretty much everything they want except work full time in the campaign war rooms and then lobby the person at the same time and raise an unlimited amount of money for them while they're lobbying them.

No, she didn't listen to us at all, even though she took a lot of time.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Okay. Thank you for that.

I'll go around the room again. I do want to ask if there are any examples that witnesses can point to where it's like, “here's the problem”, and specific instances, if you can, to say, “Here's an instance of illegal lobbying and here's the solution.”

I have about three and a half minutes, so limit it to—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Pardon me?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'm sorry. It's a minute and a half, so limit it to 30 seconds, please, if you could.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm paying attention, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'll start with the Canadian Labour Congress: examples and solutions in 30 seconds.

[Siobhán Vipond]

Absolutely: I think it's as my colleague Mike said. We don't know the motivation for these changes to happen, and I don't have examples of where this illegal lobbying has happened.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Next is Mr. Thurlow.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

We have a public registry that has all communications reported. If you know how Google works, you can cross-reference those communications with political donations. Those political donations can tell you what access happened.

Corporate contributions have been illegal in Canada since the Chrétien years, so I'm not quite sure what secret corporate contributions are coming in. It's illegal for those contributions to happen.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Conacher, are there any examples that you can point to of illegal lobbying?

[Duff Conacher]

Well, the commissioner has referred 11 cases to the RCMP. The RCMP charged one recently, she said, on February 3. There are five others the RCMP has referred back to her. There are five others, I guess, that the RCMP is still investigating.

I'm not sure what Mr. Thurlow is talking about. There are huge loopholes in the Lobbying Act. You can lobby in secret very easily if you want to. You just have to design your contract in a certain way or lobby for less than 20% of your time.

On the case Mr. Thurlow referred to earlier—which we won in 2009—of a lobbyist raising $70,000 for a minister while lobbying them, that was illegal under the old code. Under this new code, that will be legalized. That is legalized bribery. That is legalized corruption. That is what needs to be changed by changing rule 6 and the definition of “other political work”.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Thank you, Mr. Conacher.

Next we are going to go to Mr. Bains.

Sir, you have five minutes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

My first question is for Mr. Thurlow.

In your correspondence to the committee, you've indicated that the “the majority of the elements of the Code of Conduct consultation are outside the Commissioner's legislative authority under section 10.2 of the Lobbying Act.”

Can you explain in detail what you mean by this statement?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I'm happy to do so. Thank you very much for the question.

Section 10.2(1) of the Lobbying Act specifically says, “The Commissioner shall develop a Lobbyists' Code of Conduct respecting the activities described in subsections 5(1) and 7(1).” Once you are receiving payment to try to influence public policy, that is what the code of conduct applies to. It does not apply to the things that happened before.

Now, neither subsection 5(1) nor subsection 7(1) refer to the political activities of lobbyists. The plain language of the statute limits the authority to act of registration and the communications that give rise to those registrations, not any activity that occurs before those communications are contemplated.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

What's the consequence of a 10-year cooling-off period for exempt staff?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

A 10-year period? Yeesh, that's two elections. No....

[A voice]

I don't think so.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

Fair enough.

Again, there's a little bit of a duelling banjos situation about all of these different levels of lobby bans and cooling-off periods. I think the only cooling-off periods that real statutory authority exists for are the ones for public office holders who leave public office and then return to the private sector. Those are the ones that Parliament contemplated.

It's important to use Parliament as the high-water mark here because Parliament is an actual constitutional actor, and it can deliberate in a way that balances those rights in a very different way than, say, an officer of Parliament. Not withstanding the consultation, when Parliament passes a vote, every one of the people who voted one way or another have to go back to their constituents and defend that action.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

I'll go to our Canadian Labour Congress folks.

In your comments on the revised draft of the code, you opposed regulations on political work that restrict the fundamental freedom. This work either involves frequent and/or extensive interaction with the candidate or official, or performed on a full-time basis. Are you concerned that this could apply to mundane or common practices like door knocking or putting up signs?

[Siobhán Vipond]

Yes, absolutely.

I think putting up signs was excluded, if I remember correctly. However, yes, whether it's leaflet dropping, door knocking, getting on the phones, participating in a campaign, that is an absolute concern of ours because we encourage our members to get involved and to get involved with candidates they like.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I have it right here. It's “distributing or disseminating campaign materials”. That includes signs, right?

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Right.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have one and a half minutes, Mr. Bains.