Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

I'll go back to Mr. Thurlow.

Do you have...? With regard to the proposed $80 annual limit for hospitality at functions, what kind of administrative burden do you think that would put on organizations hosting events for parliamentarians?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

Again, you all are the elected officials. You will know what will influence you and what will not. I know your Outlook calendars look like a diaspora of colour because you have so many meetings. If you did not have food at these receptions, you probably wouldn't eat, which.... That's bad.

What I would tell you is that this $80 amount is a little bit random in nature. I'm not quite sure that there's any rational connection between it and the average contribution as asserted by Mr. Conacher. I don't know why they picked $80, but Mr. Conacher is correct when he says that the conflict of interest commissioner has a different number. That's bad. We need to pick one and stick to it.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Those are all of the questions I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

Mr. Villemure, you have two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Thurlow, I have two questions for you, and we have little time.

I would like to hear your opinion. How is it that McKinsey was able to circumvent the requirement to register as a lobbyist?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

The act is very specific, both in subsection 5(1) for organizations and in subsection 7(1) for consultant lobbyists.

There's the first asymmetry for lobbyists, Mr. Green, by the way. We treat them differently. They have to be influencing public policy. They have to be going after a bill or proposing a bill. It's a very specific enumerated test.

If Parliament wants to amend that test to capture the work that's done there, that is an excellent and robust debate that I would encourage you to have, but that's not what the act says now.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

In other words, there was a gap, and the activity fell through the cracks.

Don't you think that the Lobbying Act should be reviewed? We are talking about the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct, but lobbying still falls under the act. Do you believe it’s time to review the act, which has not been looked at for two cycles?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

Again, I am not going to stand in your place and tell you what you should or should not amend—I have a long list—but there are aspects of the act, certainly, that could benefit from some change, the designated public office holder's provisions being one of them. The discretion of a lobbying commissioner to limit a lobbying ban, I think, needs to be expanded a little bit.

I think we can agree that if the Prime Minister has a five-year ban, a 22-year-old who works for the Minister of Sport probably doesn't need a five-year ban. I think there's a little bit of asymmetry there. Right now we have a trawler and everybody who holds one of these specific offices is treated the same way.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much.

Finally, in a few words, tell me your recommendation to increase the public’s trust in lobbyists.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

Send them a phone card and I'll talk to them.

Seriously, the system that we have is completely undersold. We have a publicly accessible system. Anyone in the world can google and find out when an individual lobbyist spoke to someone about a particular subject. It is very easily usable. I think there are six or seven journalists who've made a career out of writing stories about who's lobbying who and at what time. I think that's something we should be really proud of. In terms of the ability of individuals to see what is happening, I think it's spectacular.

Mr. Conacher asserts that there are all kinds of secret lobbying that can happen. That would be a criminal offence, if it were happening. I don't think Canadians shy away from criminal offences. I provide advice to lots of people. I tell them, “Register. You have nothing to hide.” It's a public registry. The purpose of the Lobbying Act is to shine a bright light on this activity so that Canadians can decide for themselves whether or not it's a good idea.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Thurlow.

Perhaps Mr. Green could share his speaking time with you, Mr. Villemure.

That's because of what happened. No, I'm only kidding. After what happened the other day, I thought maybe—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is the new coalition. There's a new coalition in town.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes, sir.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Conacher, I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you to be brief and just get right to the point.

Around the world, which has the gold standard? Which country should we be looking to for the gold standard of legislation around lobbying?

[Duff Conacher]

Canada is behind on both the—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's a very specific question. Which is the best country around the world? Do you know that answer? Who should we be looking to?

[Duff Conacher]

No. There isn't one jurisdiction that puts it all together on both ethics and transparency.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay, I will pass it on.

Thank you, Mr. Conacher. I appreciate your time.

Mr. Thurlow, I'll put this question to you. Is there a gold standard we should be looking to that has the precision, what you were talking about in your opening remarks, to provide clear guidelines for Canadians and anybody involved in this?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

As it applies to the law, the gold standard is Canada.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you honestly think that—

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I honestly think that to be the case.

There might be a few state or provincial programs around the world that are a little more narrow. There are some municipal programs that—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm a little bit incredulous. You think that the lobbying laws we have are the gold standard around the world. Is that your testimony?

[W. Scott Thurlow]

You tell me which one is better and I'll—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, I'm just talking about—

[Duff Conacher]

Toronto. Toronto is better.