Information & Ethics Committee on March 7th, 2023

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much for your comments. It's the first time I've seen and heard from you in person.

I can sense the frustration and exasperation you feel as you're reporting. There seems to be a trend I'm hearing and have heard on this side. I think of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. It just feels like they're being starved for funds and are not able to do their job and are not able to investigate. It feels like they're being stymied and blocked in every respect.

Again, we heard from the Ethics Commissioner, who has now resigned just basically, it seems like, out of frustration. He said that the Liberal government just does not seem to be taking ethics seriously, and it's like, what's the use? I'm getting that sense also from your comments. He said that public shaming is the foundation of a system as far as ethics, and that's not working when you have constant breaches by the Prime Minister and others. It's just ongoing and ongoing.

I'm just wondering. The Ethics Commissioner talked about public shaming. What hammer, if you want to call it a hammer...? What do you have to do to help enforce your policies as far as the freedom of information? Do you have any tools, or is it just basically bringing it up and complaining, and it's like you're being ignored?

[Caroline Maynard]

I have to say that, until 2019, my office could only make recommendations. That was, I think, the biggest issue with the system, because for years, complaints resulted in simply a recommendation. The institution could ignore it unless my office took them to court.

Now we are issuing orders, and if they don't agree with the orders, they have to take it to court. What I see, however, is that sometimes they don't say that they don't agree with it, but they don't do it. I don't have the authority to make sure that they comply with the order. Imagine.... They don't comply with the act, but they don't comply with the order as well.

This committee needs to look at providing a process by which the orders can be certified in court. Then you can go to the institutions with this order. It's something that is now in the bill for the Official Languages Act. They are changing the Commissioner of Official Languages' authority. They actually put a certification provision in there, and I think it's been done for the Privacy Commissioner as well.

It exists. It's something that is there. I asked for it for Bill C-58. It was not given to me. However, we do have the orders and we publish those, so that is something that is also very helpful.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Great.

You commented that transparency is just not a priority for this government. I guess that's in light of what's been coming out in the past number of days and weeks with the Beijing Communist government's undermining our democracy, and now we have a rapporteur being brought forward.

It seems to me to be just reinforcing what you're saying as far as transparency. That's our concern: that they're not interested in transparency and in the facts' being brought out. That's what's coming across with what we're seeing here in this very serious undermining of our democracy.

I have a question. You mentioned 4,000 files brought forward that you're able to deal with. Are those complaints? For example, I received an email today from a constituent who sent an ATIP in eight months ago, and there's been no response. Would that be one of the 4,000? How do you come up with the number?

[Caroline Maynard]

Your constituent would have to make a complaint to my office for me to investigate why, after eight months, he or she is not receiving a request. That would be one of the complaints I'm dealing with, yes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Okay. Just going to Mr. Bains' point about the number of files and of requests.... I know, also being from British Columbia, that we found that, for example, one person—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Dalton, we're past the time.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

—did like one-third. That's hundreds of ATIPs. I'm just wondering if, perhaps, the first two or three are free, but afterwards there's maybe a little charge. I don't know.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Dalton.

We're going to go to Ms. Khalid for five minutes, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Maynard, for being here today. I appreciate it.

I just want to clarify that, as much as Mr. Dalton loves to be dramatic, the Ethics Commissioner, I believe, did resign or retire due to health issues and not out of frustration. I think that really gets to the crux of what we're doing here, and that's to make sure that we're....

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Dalton. I did not interrupt you when you were speaking. Let's not go down that path.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I've stopped your time. Let's stop the interaction across the way. Ms. Khalid has the floor.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Ms. Maynard, I understand. You spoke a little bit about the difference.... In 2018, you came in, and you said that you were at a point where you could only make recommendations, and now you make orders. Can you help to define what the difference is there and how you got to that point?

[Caroline Maynard]

The change was made through Bill C-58 in 2019. The commissioner's authority was to issue recommendations to institutions. Now it has been changed. I can make recommendations, but I can also order disclosure or order that a certain time for disclosure be done.

The change is tremendous, because when we only made recommendations our office felt that it had to negotiate. For a long time, there was a lot of negotiating with institutions, because we were worried that the requester would not get what he or she was asking. We realized that it created long delays. We didn't have the power to really work with the institution and make it happen.

Now, with the order, we don't negotiate anymore. We ask for representations and we ask why they are late or why an exemption has been applied. If we don't agree, we agree to disagree and the order is issued. Now the institution has to respond to the order. It's a lot quicker and it's a lot more efficient.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Given your experience, do you think your department and overall government have been going more towards transparency or away from transparency in these past seven years?

[Caroline Maynard]

It's difficult to tell, because we are seeing more access requests and more delays. There is definitely a lot of information being provided, but there are a lot more complaints to my office as well.

Canadians are asking for more information and, like I said earlier, until we do more disclosure proactively and change to portals with the information provided without having to go through the access, Canadians are not going to stop asking the questions. They want to know.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

That's a good thing, in my opinion, and I'm really glad that we are presenting an opportunity or at least a platform for Canadians to be able to ask those questions.

What is your wish position? I know that you've seen the report from the minister. You have provided submissions yourself. Ultimately, what is your wish position when it comes to statistics reporting, indigenous issues or HR issues in your office? Where do you think you want to be within your work?

[Caroline Maynard]

My submissions speak for themselves, but what I think is very important is for this committee's report to come up with recommendations. I know that the act provides for parliamentary review of the legislation. I think this is something that needs to be taken on. The act should be reviewed. There should be an actual report made on each of those sections in the act. “Public interest” needs to be added to the act. There are a lot of things in my report that I think need to be considered.

You've heard from experts in the field. They all have really good recommendations as well. I think this is your role now: to provide a report to this government with respect to changes that will affect the system.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Speaking of the system, what are some steps or processes that you, within your capacity, take and have in order to address some of those systemic challenges you face on a regular basis?

[Caroline Maynard]

One of the things we have done and that we realize has a very positive impact is publishing our reports, because then we can refer Canadians or institutions to the way that we interpret the act. Sometimes it helps us resolve issues quicker. I'm hoping that our analysts out there and the institutions are actually reviewing our website, so that it can help them in making those decisions when they receive a request and not wait until the complaint is made.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I appreciate that.

How often should ATIP officials be producing such reports, do you think? You're a big proponent of transparency and engagement with the Canadian public. Does your office have the resources to provide a quarterly report as opposed to, as I guess you were saying, a report that's published two years after the fact?

[Caroline Maynard]

The annual report on ATIP, I think, is the problem. It needs to be changed into something that's very easy to enter into a database, with no reporting necessary.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Maynard, what recommendations or other items would you have liked to see in the report produced by the Treasury Board?