Evidence of meeting #64 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Catherine Luelo  Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Stephen Burt  Chief Data Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Performance Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Ken Rubin  Investigative Researcher, As an Individual
David Matas  Senior Legal Counsel, B'nai Brith Canada
Mike Larsen  President, BC Freedom of Information and Privacy Association
Michael Wenig  Lawyer, Matas Law Society, B'nai Brith Canada
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I will let Ms. Luelo take the question.

April 18th, 2023 / 4:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Catherine Luelo

Thank you very much for your question.

I think one of the challenges in this space is that you have departments individually interpreting exceptions and exclusions. Part of what we have done is given guidance to the town on how we would like to have things applied. As well, the minister has already referenced the training that was available.

Stephen, is there anything you'd like to add?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Ms. Luelo.

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes, please.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

Minister, you cited the need for indigenous consultations on the work you're doing right now. I want to reference the “what we heard” report. In that, there were many conclusions in relation to advancing indigenous reconciliation, which could be interpreted as vague or making broad claims about being committed to facilitating, supporting and furthering indigenous-led information and data strategies.

Why were more specific recommendations that are reflective of the eight indigenous-specific submissions not included?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Again, we did a very thorough approach, I believe, to indigenous peoples to have their participation in this review, as the engagement and the outreach were very important. The conclusions brought forward, that we take measures necessary to ensure that federal laws are consistent with the declaration.... Actually, this is linked to UNDRIP because we also have to—

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

With respect, I asked a specific question and I'm going to need a specific answer. It's regarding the eight indigenous-specific submissions. Why were they not included in your recommendations, if indigenous engagement and consultation are important to you?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

We had two reports. The first one was the first review, and then we wanted to make sure we had engagement with the indigenous peoples, which was a second review. We brought all that together to do—

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Was the second review the “what we heard” report?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Okay. In that, there was feedback that you were also receiving information from non-indigenous entities as well. What was the purpose of consulting non-indigenous entities on issues specific to indigenous people?

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Catherine Luelo

There were two consultations. One was done with the general population, and we published a “what we heard” report. At that point, we reoriented and said we needed to speak with indigenous communities. We did that engagement over a period of about nine months and published a “what we heard” report from that, which was included with the final report that you're referencing.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Were there non-indigenous organizations consulted on the indigenous-specific “what we heard” report and, if so, how many and why?

4:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Catherine Luelo

I don't know the answer to that question. We can certainly come back to the committee with an answer on that. I don't believe so, but—

4:20 p.m.

A voice

[Inaudible—Editor]

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Okay.

Mr. Chair, let the record show that the Rotary Club has a precedent for phone interruptions, and I would like this member levied at least $25 for the good and welfare of the committee.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

You have my sincere apologies.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Mr. Green, thank you for your intervention.

I was thinking $50, but if you want to be benevolent and have $25, then that's fine.

4:20 p.m.

A voice

There's inflation.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Okay, we're done with the time for Mr. Green's round.

I said four minutes, but we're probably closer to three at this point. Just to let you know, we're going to Mr. Kurek, and we may have Mr. Barrett intervene at some point. Then I'm sorry, Mr. Fergus, but you'll have three minutes this round.

Go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thanks, Chair.

Madam Minister, have you ever filed an access to information request?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

No.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I've filed a number of them, and 60% closed in 30 days is a pipe dream compared to my experience—to give you some context.

I'm glad you brought up Bill C-58. However, when hearing from witnesses, they had a very different experience and in fact outlined quite a few times how a few disclosures and reduced fees seem to be a way for the government to hide behind increased secrecy in their actions.

In light of all of that—and we've heard a lot of criticisms of Bill C-58—why are the criticisms about Bill C-58, which your government passed a number of years ago, not included in your report?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mona Fortier Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

The important thing is that we did actually bring legislation after 30 years of this law not having been looked at, and I believe that we also gave the Information Commissioner order-making power. As I said, we also eliminated the fees beyond a $5 application and also put into law a system of proactive disclosure of information from the ministers' offices, port authorities and other government institutions. We will continue that work to make sure we provide an open and transparent system.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thanks, Minister, but the point stands that the experience of many people who have used the system is certainly not what you're describing here today.

I'd like to hand my time over to Mr. Barrett.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks, Chair.

Madam Minister, the Information Commissioner told this committee that your report was a summary of problems that are well known and have been identified for years.

On what date will you present a list of solutions to those problems, and on what date will you have effected the completion of those recommendations?