Evidence of meeting #65 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A video is available from Parliament.
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
It’s the ability to build campaigns of absolutely incredible complexity, in two minutes, without having to hire a single employee.
I saw what it could produce. To this day, I remain stunned by our unpreparedness for the destructive capacity of artificial intelligence.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Do you think a Committee visit to the NATO Centre of Excellence would be a good idea?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
Yes indeed, I think it’s an excellent idea for you to visit Riga.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Very well.
What would give us a better understanding of foreign interference? I mean the chaos, the reference that is not ours and the way of thinking that is different from ours.
What can my colleagues and I do to better grasp the overall picture and better understand this concept that is, after all, foreign to us?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
Perhaps I’ll answer with a flourish.
I would advise you to read Dostoevsky’s Demons, especially when Stavroguin says, “We will light fires! We will spread legends…”
You must understand that that’s the title of those interference operations. Between a discussion with artificial intelligence specialists and some serious reading of Dostoevsky, it will immediately become clear how these regimes think.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much.
The intellectual in me is very happy to hear such comments.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Next we have Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Green.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
I'm still very keenly interested in the transparency register, although I wasn't quite clear by the end of my last intervention.
Sir, do you recommend that Canada also look at implementing a transparency register?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
It's not up to me to decide what you, as a sovereign country, should do.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's not foreign interference. We need recommendations from this committee on this.
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
I do believe that transparency registers are helpful for democracies, yes, and especially for parliamentary democracies.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
The EU transparency register is also one of the few registers that require registrants to disclose information about indirect lobbying strategies. Can you describe what this looks like in practice?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
Actually, I am now working on the fact that it is not very efficient. I will send you, if you want, the results of our discussion because it's going on right now. We are working on reshaping it and making it clearer and more efficient. I'm very happy to share the results of our discussion—
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
—of course, not as a recommendation from us but just as information.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
No, we need recommendations to this committee in order to have it included in the findings. I could say what I'd like, but having it come from a witness is much better.
The resolution adopted on March 9, 2022, considers that “engagement-based and addictive ranking systems pose a systemic threat to our society” with regard to foreign influence's using online platforms. Can you expand on this?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
I'm sorry. I could not hear.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
A resolution on March 9 from the EU considers that “engagement-based and addictive ranking systems pose a systemic threat to our society” with regard to foreign interference's using online platforms. Presumably, you're talking about algorithms. Can you expand on this?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
Yes. What we found out, in discussing this also with scientists, is that the way the algorithms are structured is actually helping the promotion of addictive opinions, which means those that are, for instance, most radical or extreme.
I'll explain myself. For instance, when you go to choose emoticons on Facebook and the “Anger” one has five times more importance in the algorithm than the “Like” one, then it's encouragement for this kind of polarization. The fact is that we have to think about one thing today. Our agora, our public agora, as we say, is private property. It should give all of us vertigo just to think about that.
That's why I wanted to mention before the Digital Services Act that the European Union had the courage to take—against lobbying, I must say, from some platforms. It's to say that you need public scrutiny because it has public impact.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Glucksmann.
Mr. Glucksmann, I have to ask you a question. There's a desire on the part of the committee to keep you around a little bit longer, probably for about 20 minutes, because they are finding your testimony extremely compelling. Is it okay if we ask you to stay for an extra 20 minutes? Do you have the time, sir?
Chair, Special Committee on foreign interference in all democratic processes in the European Union, including disinformation, and the strengthening of integrity, transparency and accountability in the European Parliament, European Parliament
Yes, that's no problem.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Okay. We're all good with that.
We're going to go to the next round. Mr. Barrett, from the Conservative Party, has five minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Thanks, Chair.
Thank you, sir, for joining us today. I appreciate your perspectives.
I'm wondering if you can tell us about the events that led to the creation of the special committee. I am most interested in the whistle-blower protections that were part of the plan that was proposed.
I wonder if you could also speak to the non-partisan nature in which it was approached. My reading of English-language media reports of some of the events of late last year, in the context of Canadian politics, would have placed someone in a similar position in Canada in a difficult political position to propose and champion the types of reforms you're speaking about today. People who were, if I'm understanding correctly, ideologically more aligned with you were at the centre of some of these scandals. I read that led to the creation of these reforms. However, you persisted and in fact, maybe in spite of that or maybe because of that.... My reading is that you pushed quite hard for these reforms.
Could you speak to that?