Information & Ethics Committee on April 21st, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's okay. I will put this in my remaining 30 seconds to you for your consideration for future correspondence back to this committee.

I agree that our democracies are very fragile. I agree that they are under threat from hostile actors internationally, both those that are explicit and, quite frankly, some of our allies.

I would also agree that our Parliament needs to deeply consider, whether it's through this ethics committee.... I think in this moment, a special committee for this particular purpose would be warranted to keep up with the absolute velocity of tools used by foreign hostile actors against Canada, against our democracies and against our democratic institutions.

In your consideration of all of those things, when you report back to our committee, I'm going to ask you to be candid. I'm going to ask you to think in the framework of an elected official defending the fate of a nation and give us whatever candid recommendations you see fit.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[Raphaël Glucksmann]

I have your response, because we need you on that. If you can work with us on the equivalent of a digital services act, that will be very helpful. It means responsibility for the platforms.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Thank you, Mr. Glucksmann.

That concludes our questions for today.

On behalf of the committee, and on behalf of Canadians across the country, I want to thank you for your testimony today.

[Raphaël Glucksmann]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I also want to say thank you for being gracious with your time. The interest of the committee in hearing what you had to say obviously extended the time that you were expected to be here. For that, I say thank you, sir.

[Raphaël Glucksmann]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to suspend for about a minute or so, just to make sure that Mr. Glucksmann has gone, and then we're going to return in public. I don't really see the need to be in camera, because I have an update for the committee on some committee business.

Let's suspend for one minute, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I call the meeting back to order.

I'll remind committee members that we're dealing with committee business. We're in public.

I wanted to bring the committee up to date on where we are in terms of the schedule. First and foremost, we have lost a couple of days, May 5 and May 19, as a result of the motion that was passed.

I see your hand. I have Mr. Barrett first and then you second, Mr. Villemure.

We lost a couple of days, based on the motion that was passed in the House of Commons yesterday by unanimous consent.

For Tuesday, we have the final two witnesses who are coming in on access to information, and then we have the departments for the second hour. We are going to leave time for drafting instructions on Tuesday. We have gone full circle on that study, and I think there's enough—not just based on the interim report that we have received, but also subsequent to having the minister in, etc.—for the analysts to finalize that report and make recommendations to Parliament and the government.

The second thing is on Friday. As you recall, the committee passed a motion on Tuesday on the appointment of the Ethics Commissioner. My plan is to call the witnesses for next Friday. This will push off the foreign interference study for a bit.

That's the update I have.

Mr. Barrett, I saw your hand. Go ahead, please, and then we'll hear Mr. Villemure.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I appreciate the update on the schedule. I'm not sure how much time we will have to get through all of that.

I'm going to put forward a motion here. I think some discussions between parties with respect to meetings beyond next Friday and with respect to Tuesday's motion.... If we don't have time on the clock today, we can have some conversations about that. I think the schedule as proposed and the plan are good, but having lost a couple of upcoming meetings, we can discuss that among the parties.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I see your hand, Mr. Fergus.

As a reminder for the committee, we have 14 meetings after this one, because of the two we've lost.

Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

With respect to the study on foreign interference, I move:

That, in relation to the committee’s study of foreign interference and threats to the integrity of democratic institutions, intellectual property and the Canadian state, the committee:

a) Invite Alexandre Trudeau, Founder and Succession Member of the Trudeau Foundation; and

b) Summon Pascale Fournier and Morris Rosenberg, both former President and CEO of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, to appear at a date no later than May 5, 2023.

I believe my staff gave paper copies in both official languages for distribution.

If the motion is in order, I have a few comments to make about it, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Madam Clerk, has this been distributed to the members?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Nancy Vohl]

By email, I did.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

The motion is in order.

Mr. Barrett, you have a few comments on it. Please go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

With respect to item b), Pascale Fournier and Morris Rosenberg were included in the witness list submitted by Conservatives. I have not received an indication that there has been acceptance, but my understanding is that they haven't acknowledged receipt, which is an indication that there is not an intention to appear. That's the rationale for a summons.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

If I could intervene for a second.... The reason we had the gap in the second hour is that there were invitations sent out, but unfortunately, we couldn't fill the spots for various reasons. I just want to make that clear. However, that allowed us to have Mr. Glucksmann speak for a little bit extra.

For the benefit of the committee, I want to make that clear.

Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The final point is with respect to item a), Mr. Trudeau. The rationale for that invitation—not a summons but an invitation to Mr. Trudeau—is that it's widely reported that the gift of $140,000 to the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, which is the subject of reporting and reflects that this was an influence operation by the Communist regime in Beijing.... We have since seen the foundation rightly return that donation to the donor, but the individual in question, Mr. Trudeau, was the signatory as part of that transaction, so he's relevant to our study on foreign interference.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

On the motion, I have Mr. Villemure, Mr. Fergus and Mr. Green.

Go ahead, Mr. Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What I have to say isn't about the motion, it's about the previous item.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Okay.

Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Like Mr. Villemure, I want to comment on something you said at the beginning.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right. Thank you.

Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm certainly happy to consider all the impacts of foreign interference. I will note that, on this trend of bringing in the family members, you know, I get the political capital that's gained from it, but I feel that to use this committee in that way if we have other witnesses.... You know, the allegations that are being levied, if they're true, I think would warrant it and a full-scale investigation by the appropriate authorities, but as it relates to this committee, I'm not super comfortable with it, given where we're at and the work that we have to do. I'm uncomfortable with going down this line.

I will share this with my Conservatives colleagues: There's a growing trend of trying to shop these things around different committees to try to find some place where they stick. It's starting to feel like spaghetti against the wall. If you have a smoking gun, I encourage you to put it on the table and let people know exactly and specifically what it is you're talking about. However, the comments made by my friend, Mr. Barrett, don't suffice—at least in my opinion—for going down that path with the family members, given the kinds of precedents that have been set around the House. If that's what it's going to be, then I would need to have something more substantive to go on than that feeling.

That's where I'm at right now. I'm happy to hear more of the rationale from Conservative colleagues as to why they want to go in that direction, but until then, I'm just registering my uneasiness with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Now we have Mr. Fergus and then Ms. Hepfner after that.

Go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I agree with Mr. Green.

What we did for 90 minutes this morning was important. I feel we learned a number of things about what the Europeans are doing on an issue that's important.

I feel there's a bit of mudslinging going on right now. What do you want? Let's go to the vote and see what happens. Personally, I'm not in favour of this motion at all.