Evidence of meeting #66 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was atip.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you for your answers.
I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Gourde.
We now go over to Mr. Bains.
Mr. Bains, you have five minutes, sir. Go ahead, please.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests for joining us today.
My first question is for Mr. Beeby. The President of the Treasury Board and officials have said that their focus is on administrative reform. The Information Commissioner has stated that legislative reform would increase the strain on the system at this time. Do you agree that administrative reform is the appropriate avenue at this time to improve the system?
4:30 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
Yes.
I don't agree with the commissioner. I think legislative reform would reduce the strain on the system and would add clarity.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Okay. A recent report by The Globe and Mail found that B.C.'s access to information requests from media have dropped dramatically, by up to 80%, after they introduced their $10 fee per request. Do you believe that the $5 flat fee for requests introduced by C-58 is a step in the right direction?
4:30 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
The $5 fee was there all along. It was there from 1983, so the application fee did not change.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Okay. Officials last week discussed the complexity of declassification in government, inviting the committee to provide direction on declassification by looking at international peers. Are there any particular countries that you believe it would be helpful for Canada to review?
4:30 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
I think we have to keep an eye on Britain, New Zealand and Australia. They are the ones that are directly comparable, but I don't like to get into comparisons, because it's just a rabbit hole.
We know the problems that exist in Canada, and we have heard solutions for more than 40 years now. I don't think we need to go abroad to find out what's wrong and how to fix it. It's always good to keep an eye on your neighbours, but we don't have to do that. That's just another long study that we don't need.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Okay. Again to you, you've just said that much of the government's information is balkanized. In other words, the government has no way of tracking what has already been released by a different department. What suggestions would you offer to streamline the process?
4:30 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
I think of a central information system. To be fair, this government is working on such a system, so that you can file at one portal online, but I think that portal needs to be enhanced so that it can also produce reliable statistics. That will go a long way towards giving us a clearer picture, a true picture of how the system is breaking down.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Finally, during his appearance on this study, former clerk Michael Wernick stated, “[A] duty to document is one of those things that sound good if you say them fast enough, but would not work in practice.” He said, “It could have harmful and unintended consequences.”
What are your thoughts on this?
4:30 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
With respect, I think that's better asked of Mr. Conacher. I don't know Mr. Wernick's thinking on that, and it's not one of my recommendations.
4:30 p.m.
Co-Founder, Democracy Watch
I don't see any problem at all with documenting decisions and actions. I don't see the danger either. There will always be exemptions for certain records to protect national security, police investigations, truly proprietary information of businesses and relations with other governments. Those exemptions will apply to the release of those records. However, in terms of actually documenting how decisions and actions occur in government, the public simply has a right to know how actions and decisions are made. It's the only way to determine whether decisions and actions were made to protect the public interest or to protect a private interest because of some unethical—let alone corrupt—reason.
4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Those are all the questions I have.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Bains.
Mr. Garon, you have two and a half minutes to ask your questions.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Beeby, it is obvious that changes have to be made to our legislation. However, it seems that the message we are getting from the government is that any problem with access to information and turnaround times is always due to a lack of resources.
Over the past few years, have you seen any real efforts on the government's part to increase the resources given to the Information Commissioner of Canada in order to solve the issues?
4:35 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
No, I haven't. The commissioner in particular has to go cap in hand every year, begging for more money because of the massive avalanche of complaints she gets each year.
The government is not being proactive about that by any stretch, and the Information Commissioner continually pleads poverty. She comes here before this committee and says the same thing every time: She just doesn't have the resources.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
When we look at Bill C‑58, which was tabled in 2017, we can see that the issue of lack of resources was already highlighted back then. That continues to this day.
When a government fails year after year to provide sufficient resources to the organization that should allow Canadians access to information, should well-informed citizens be interpreting that as proof of intent?
4:35 p.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
Well, it's hard to provide hard evidence for motivation, but it's not difficult to understand why a government would think it has more important things to do than answer access to information requests.
I just don't see how the incentive would be there for resources to be provided. The government that provides those resources is only going to get a lot more access to information requests, and it's going to get a lot more embarrassing stories about itself, so the system is self-sabotaging, almost.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Very quickly, Mr. Beeby.
The government has awarded hundreds of millions of dollars' worth in contracts to certain firms, oftentimes through irregular calls for tender. The McKinsey firm and others come to mind.
Do you know of any such initiatives that sought to help improve access to information?
Were these consultants used to improve access to information?