Evidence of meeting #67 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
The Hon. Greg Fergus
Did he play a role in the appointment of the foundation's board members?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
In fact, the foundation has a particular governance. Its bylaws provide for up to 18 members serving on the board. Two members are appointed by the government, that is, by Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, two members represent the family of former Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, and 16 members are ordinary members appointed by the membership. At this time, the government category is empty, as the department has not submitted any nominations for many years. Under my leadership, there were no appointments.
As for the membership assembly, six people, out of a total of 30, can be appointed by the government, that is, the department. At this time, there is only one individual out of six who represents the governmental category. There are also three individuals who can represent the family, but at the moment there is only Alexandre Trudeau. Finally, there are 21 seats for ordinary members.
If I can summarize, in terms of governance, the government has the ability to appoint up to nine members. Currently, there is only one member in this category, as the other positions have not been filled for several years.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Fournier and Mr. Fergus.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Ms. Fournier. With the two and a half minutes I have, let's try to do the best we can.
At the end of our conversation, I asked you if you had been bullied. You told me that people had made certain comments about you. In an April 12 article in La Presse, a board member said that he had seen bullying and even threatening behavior at the foundation and that he could not recall seeing that in his career. Can you describe these events?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I assume these comments were made anonymously.
I can tell you that the board meetings were very heated in my last few weeks. I was accused of being in bad faith because I wanted to get to the bottom of this and make sure that the people who were there at the time recused themselves. I wanted to do that, not because I thought they had done anything, but as a lawyer and an ethicist. We had meetings unlike any I had ever seen before. Before, all meetings were respectful. We never raised our voices, never attacked people personally.
I was indeed personally attacked by members who raised their voices and made insinuations that impugned my integrity and intentions. These behaviours took place in the context of an emergency meeting that I myself called on March 31, at the request of three trustees and in accordance with the foundation's bylaws. I invited a lawyer who specializes in these matters, as well as an accounting firm and a crisis management firm to the meeting. We were to discuss who should recuse themselves and what mandate we should give these firms to ensure that we got to the bottom of this matter.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Because of the two and a half minutes, I'm going to have to cut you off. What do you think were the motivations of the people who were causing the problem?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
As you know, I was not there at the time, between 2015 and 2017. I was only able to piece together part of the matter, and I wanted to stop researching so that a forensic accounting firm could get to the bottom of things. I don't know what I don't know.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I have no idea.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes. Please go ahead.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Ms. Fournier, who raised their voice at you in those meetings?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Once again, I find it peculiar to have to provide names. I would be inclined not to, out of a sense of confidentiality and loyalty to my former employer.
Do you insist on my giving names?
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You can, because you're here before a parliamentary committee and I've asked you that question. I've put that question to you. I acknowledge that you've been asked that question under the duress of the parliamentary committee, but that question has been put to you.
Who raised their voice at you at those meetings, specifically?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
There were two individuals: Bruce McNiven, the treasurer, and Peter Sahlas, a board member and chair of the finance and investment committee...
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
The CBC article published on April 12, 2023 cites a statement provided by the foundation. It says that of the $200,000 donation to the foundation, you “had only received $140,000, in the form of two $70,000 payments.”
As the CEO of the organization, did you provide an investigation regarding the payments falling short? What types of policies and follow-ups did you have, given the $60,000 gap between what was reported to be donated and what was received?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
The last portion of the donation was due on July 1, 2018. I started my mandate on July 9. The former CEO, Morris Rosenberg, had not asked to receive that part of the donation.
I read the contract. I didn't have much in the Chinese donation file, but I read the contract and saw immediately that money had to be spent only to organize conferences around China and around the relationship between Canada and China. Given the fact that I was adopting a new strategic plan and going in the field with different cohorts, I had no intention of organizing conferences on China.
The last portion of that donation was not asked for. This was prior to my mandate. It had nothing to do with the new strategic plan, so I did not do anything in that regard until I received a letter from the dean of the faculty of law at the Université de Montréal.
This was a letter addressed to Alexandre Trudeau himself that had been physically sent to the foundation. Then it had been sent to my email address, but with a request that I deliver it to Alexandre Trudeau. In this letter, the Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Montreal asked that the money sent to the University of Montreal be returned. Apparently, Alexandre Trudeau had had conversations with people at the university.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Fournier.
That concludes our first hour of testimony.
We are resetting to six minutes per round.
We received the motion, or the clerk has, in writing from Mr. Green. It's been sent to translation. I'm hoping we can have it back in a reasonable time. We'll see.
Mr. Cooper, you're next. You have six minutes. Go ahead.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much, Ms. Fournier.
We know from the agreement that there were two so-called, purported donors—two individuals. We know, based upon the tax receipt that was issued, that a company was listed, which was Millennium Golden Eagle International Canada.
Is that correct?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
That was on the receipts, yes.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
You have stated that the China Cultural Industry Association had been corresponding with staff at the Trudeau Foundation.
Do you believe the true source of the donation was the China Cultural Industry Association?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
That's why I wanted to have a forensic audit with everything regarding that foundation. The legal advice that I received....
Again, I want to mention that at the time, when we gave back the money, with the executive committee of the board, those who were there at the time signed the cheque to give back the money. I did not sign the cheque myself. From that moment and in the weeks after, I started to read some of these emails. I had no idea about these emails. I immediately asked for help from lawyers.
The advice that I received, now that the money had been sent back to the foundation, was to not give it back now, because we needed to understand everything around that donation. It was that it's not a good idea to send it back; we should just freeze everything and not touch it. It was that we're going to ask all of these questions, look at the emails at the time and meet witnesses. We'll talk to some of the board members, some of the members, possibly former employees and try to understand what happened with that donation.
I cannot answer your question. I was not even there. That's why I wanted to have a forensic audit.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you for that, Madame Fournier.
La Presse reported that a foundation document states that one of the foundation's members, who was a director in 2016, phoned a senior staff member of the foundation to say that the real donor was not the same donor as on the tax receipt.
Who was that former director and current foundation member who contacted the staff member as reported in La Presse, do you know?
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes, I do know.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Her name is Farah Mohamed. She's a member currently not on the board and was on the executive committee, on the board, at the time. In the emails that are part of the file and the server at the foundation, she was in these emails on that contract itself and so on, and I have no information regarding these donors. I mean, I was not even there at the time.