Information & Ethics Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I didn't see you. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Next we have Mr. Bains.

Go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rosenberg, for joining us today.

I know you mentioned that nobody wants to talk about your report, but I actually do. I'd like to ask about your work on the foreign interference report.

One of the recommendations we've heard from past witnesses is the need for MPs and senators to be briefed on foreign interference. I know that I was never briefed before my election on steps I could take to protect myself.

What format do you think those briefings should take? Could you touch upon the 16 recommendations and other things?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Sure.

First of all, I think a start would be unclassified briefings about what to watch out for and about the kinds of methods that foreign diplomats or others might try to use to entice MPs.

Very importantly, I would add that when my focus was on the federal election, what I learned in doing this work was that this influence starts much earlier. It starts with people who are interested in public issues, people who are community leaders, people who are on school boards, people who are in municipal government and people who are in provincial government. Really, these briefings need to be much broader than just for MPs and senators.

The fact that we haven't yet been briefing MPs and senators, I think, is something that needs to be remedied very quickly. It needs to go beyond that as well. There have to be discussions with provincial and municipal governments to educate them on these issues.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Let's say there are bad actors involved. It's hard for our security agencies to warn potential election candidates.

What would the briefing look like in terms of who to look out for, what kinds of things to look out for and what the difference is between interference and influence?

[Morris Rosenberg]

This is the big question. It's not an easily resolvable one. I'm not sure all the political parties necessarily want the same thing, because right now my understanding is that the only real vetting that takes place of people is when they are being considered for cabinet. There isn't a general vetting of everybody who might be running for Parliament. That's a lot of work. It takes a lot of resources, but that has to be part of the conversation.

Other things have to be part of the conversation: Who's coming out to nomination meetings? How are these things being run? Are they being manipulated by anybody? Are people who are not Canadian citizens being bused in to vote for preferred candidates?

It's a lot. As I said, it's changing. Because we have been focusing on China, there have been reports recently, and not surprisingly, that the Russians are interested in all NATO countries and are trying to have people be less supportive of Ukraine.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You said the nature of the threats is changing as they evolve. What things are you seeing change from before, when you were doing the report?

[Morris Rosenberg]

One of the interesting things about my report—and we haven't talked about this at all—is that the protocol talked about not just foreign interference but domestic interference as well. They are very different animals. One of the problems, and one of the frustrations I had, is that there was no publicity about this protocol before the election, unlike in 2019. The protocol was put up on the government's website when the election was called, and it was different. It then said “domestic interference”, and, frankly, nobody knew exactly what that meant. The only thing I know is that it doesn't mean the typical kind of interference. There were increasing concerns about violence from domestic actors with respect to the leader of NDP and, to some extent, to the Prime Minister, so yes, that's an issue.

I said to the PCO that nobody seemed to really understand well enough what it meant to have domestic interference in this report. I asked the PCO, “What are you going to do about it? Are there different parameters on it than you would apply to foreign interference?”

You cannot take away the free speech of Canadians. Canadians can say whatever they want about an election within the limits of hate or whatever.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Are you talking about misinformation and disinformation? Is that a key threat?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Yes. It's a key threat from not just foreign actors. We recognize that it's increasing from domestic actors and violent extremists.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You mentioned there were a number of countries involved. What other countries do you think were involved?

[Morris Rosenberg]

The were the Iranians, Russians and Chinese. There may be some others that I'm not privy to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Bains and Mr. Rosenberg.

We're resetting now with six-minute rounds.

We are going to Mr. Cooper for six minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Rosenberg.

Mr. Rosenberg, you claim that the source of the donation was Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc., yet on July 14, 2016, when you sent international bank transfer instructions, nowhere mentioned in that letter is Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc. The only names on that letter were Bin and Niu. Why?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I don't have the document, and I can't answer the question because I don't recall that right now.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

That's highly suspicious. You signed it. It's highly suspicious that on a document sent to transfer the money, nowhere is that entity mentioned. It just has the names of those donors.

You claim the receipt was sent to the registered office of this company, yet in the September 26, 2016, correspondence with the Trudeau Foundation, the address the receipt was requested to be sent to is the same address as the China Cultural Industry Association. Can you explain that?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I'll say two things. First of all, I know that Mr. Zhang was the president of Millennium International and director of Millennium Canada. I'm not sure what his other positions were. He was also the president of the China—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Do you know what the China Cultural Industry Association is? It's a company associated with the United Front Work Department.

Mr. Rosenberg, you said with a straight face that you saw no evidence of a foreign interference network with respect to this donation. What does Millennium Golden Eagle International do, by the way?

[Morris Rosenberg]

As far as I know, they're a media company.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Did you ever bother to do any due diligence? Did you bother to even go to their website? Maybe if you did, Mr. Rosenberg—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

This had better be on a procedural basis, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm just wondering if there is any procedure to ensure that witnesses who come before this committee are treated with respect.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm not seeing any evidence of disrespect. I'm seeing a hard line of questioning from Mr. Cooper. If it does cross that line, I'll deal with it. I do want to remind members of the committee that points of order are made on a procedural basis and not because you don't like what you're hearing.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper. I stopped your time. You have three minutes and 35 seconds.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Did you even bother to go to the website of this company?