Information & Ethics Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You signed the receipt, though.

[Morris Rosenberg]

Yes, I signed the receipt.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

However, you don't know where it was sent.

[Morris Rosenberg]

You're asking me to remember, eight years later, where a receipt was sent. I don't.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With all due respect, you said this was an unusual circumstance in that Mr. Trudeau signed this donation agreement in an unusual ceremony with an unusually large donation from a foreign country, which is quite unusual for the Trudeau Foundation. Is that fair? Is this a usual set of circumstances we're talking about here?

I highlight that it's so unusual because that's what we're seeing in public reporting. We're seeing that a donation was made by individuals who were effectively cut-outs for a soft power operation and operating on behalf of a Communist dictatorship looking to wield influence in Canada.

You were the DM of foreign affairs. Is that correct?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I was.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In your time in the public service, you would have been briefed and aware of foreign influence tactics as a part of that job. Is that correct?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you not find it odd that this donation from Beijing, from cut-outs acting directly on behalf of the Communist dictatorship in Beijing...were suddenly looking to target a donation to a foundation that bore the name of one of the candidates for prime minister in the election? You said it was a couple of weeks before election day in 2015, and they wanted to get the money out the door quickly. Does that not strike you as concerning, based on your training?

[Morris Rosenberg]

As I said in my opening remarks, you have to look at this from the context of 2016. In the context of 2016, just about every university in Canada, many corporations and the Government of Canada—including the Harper government—had changed their attitude towards China.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With all due respect, sir, this is, as you said, very unusual.

I need you to confirm this. How many times did Mr. Alexandre Trudeau sign for donations on behalf of the foundation?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I know of this one, and I can't confirm.... I don't know of any others. I'm not sure there weren't ever any others.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did you have any conversations with Mr. Alexandre Trudeau about this donation?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I probably did, but I don't recall them.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Did he ever raise donors or donations from China with you?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Do you mean other than this?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes.

[Morris Rosenberg]

No.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You did an Industry Canada lookup. I want to go back to Mr. Green's question with respect to the China Cultural Industry Association. This link is problematic because of its direct connections to the CCP.

The address that this donation was sent to is incredibly important. You said you're not sure about where it went. Are you able to verify that by searching your records, or would an email search confirm that?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I don't have access to the foundation's records. All I have access to right now are the 160 pages that were provided under access to information.

I know that representatives of the foundation are coming. They have access to all of those records, and you, perhaps, would be better to ask them. I can't get those records myself.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I think that in 2016, we were aware of attempts by foreign governments to try to influence our democracy. I want to ask one last question with my remaining time.

You saw the reporting after the donation was received. In 2022 and 2023 you would have been aware, with the benefit of hindsight, of what appears to be a very problematic donation at best but an obvious influence attempt by the Chinese dictatorship at worst.

Do you think it was appropriate for you to accept a role to investigate foreign influence in our elections when this had occurred at the Trudeau Foundation, which, as has been reported, seems to be quite clearly an influence operation to target the Prime Minister?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I need a very quick response, Mr. Rosenberg.

[Morris Rosenberg]

Yes.

I didn't see a connection. As I've cited, Professor Wark didn't see how this was an influence operation at all, and neither did I, frankly.

When I took the job, by the way, back in June or July—it was offered by the Privy Council Office—to examine this, I wasn't getting the whole view on whether there had been election interference. I was examining the operation of this one piece, the protocol, and whether it was adequate. I said, “Well, it worked as it was intended to work, but there are some really big problems with it.”

I know that nobody wants to talk to me about my report, but a lot of stuff in that report is critical of the government. There are 16 recommendations on things they need to fix.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Rosenberg and Mr. Barrett.

I have Ms. Hepfner next.

Go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rosenberg, for being here with us today.

I would like to go back to your experience as deputy minister. You served in both Conservative and Liberal governments, and I'd like you to tell us a bit more about that experience and the different ministers you worked for.