Information & Ethics Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Morris Rosenberg]

As I've explained, the way receipting was dealt with—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I guess the answer to that is no, because if you had bothered.... It's a yes-or-no question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Cooper, you do have to give him a chance to answer, please.

Go ahead.

[Morris Rosenberg]

Receipting was done by staff in the foundation in conjunction with our accountant, and when I got a receipt to sign, I assumed it was fine.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Hopefully they knew how to use Google, because had they bothered to do so or had you bothered to do your due diligence, you would have known that the website of Millennium Golden Eagle International states that part of their mandate is to take governmental guidance from Beijing. If you had bothered to do your due diligence, you would have known that Zhang Bin was a political adviser to the Beijing regime.

You came before this committee with a straight face, as the former deputy minister of foreign affairs, and said, “There's nothing to see here” in the face of that. Are you serious?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Yes, I'm serious, and I'll answer your question.

First of all, Zhang Bin was introduced to Mr. Lefebvre at the Université de Montréal by our former ambassador in China, Mr. Guy Saint-Jacques, whom I actually spoke to yesterday. Mr. Saint-Jacques was very well aware of the associations that Mr. Zhang had, and I think it was felt that almost everybody in China who was anybody had some connection with the government. The question was, what were they trying to influence?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

This agreement began to crystallize with this individual associated with the United Front Work Department, and with this shell company, the address of which was a house in Dorval. It was insisted, as a condition, that the Prime Minister's brother be involved, and all of this was happening one month before a federal election campaign.

Didn't you see anything to be concerned about? Was there no red flag for you to indicate that maybe you should look into this, that maybe you should do your due diligence and that maybe there was something here? Was there nothing at all?

[Morris Rosenberg]

First of all, these discussions started in 2014, before I arrived at the foundation and long before the federal election in 2015. Mr. Lefebvre, who was negotiating this principally, was advised by our ambassador in China that Mr. Zhang was a good person to talk to. At that time, there were lots of Canadian organizations dealing with other—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Rosenberg, one of two things is possible. Either you are completely incompetent or you were wilfully blind. There is nothing in your record to indicate that you were incompetent. The only conclusion I can draw is that you were wilfully blind.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Cooper, thank you for your time.

Let's have some decorum here, please.

We are going now to Mr. Fergus for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Rosenberg, let me first apologize for the needless insults you had there, given your long history in service to our country. We can ask tough questions, but we don't have to be disagreeable to do so.

Sir, let's talk about tax receipts.

Can tax receipts be used by any person or company who doesn't pay taxes in Canada?

[Morris Rosenberg]

As far as I know, they can't.

The example I would use is this. I make a donation to a Canadian company, and I'm retired and spend six months in the south of France. If I say, “Send the receipt to my address in the south of France”, then I get it there. I would then file the receipt with my income tax to get a deduction for my tax. I think this is something along the lines of what happened here.

The assumption that we were somehow nefariously trying to hide the real identity of the donor.... The cheque came from Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc. The receipt was made out to Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc. This is why I think there needs to be an independent investigation in this whole thing.

Somebody not only needs to look at the documents but also needs to bring in the people at the Trudeau Foundation who were there at the time. Frankly, maybe somebody should go and speak to the company in Dorval. Maybe somebody should speak to the Canada Revenue Agency about whether they thought there was anything untoward about this.

We had no malevolent intent. We thought, and we believed strongly, that we were complying with the law by sending the receipt to the person who made the donation.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's fair enough.

Let's also talk about the meeting at Langevin Block, as it was known at the time.

You indicated in your testimony, and I think the record would state, that the building is used by the Prime Minister's Office. It's also used by the Privy Council Office with the Privy Council being a central agency of the government. Deputy ministers, of course, have a particular responsibility. The clerk would be your boss.

[Morris Rosenberg]

Sort of, yes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I mean of the deputy minister community, I would assume.

Deputy ministers often go outside to seek advice. Before I became a member of Parliament, I used to work for Canada's universities. I know that on occasion some of our researchers, or, frankly, some of the university presidents or college presidents, were invited to offer an opinion on particular subjects.

Can you please indicate to us what the intention was behind the meeting that you had set up at that time?

[Morris Rosenberg]

As I said to Mr. Villemure, the intention of the meeting was.... We knew that the government had diversity and pluralism as a priority back in 2015. A fellow from, I believe, the University of Waterloo and one of our mentors, who was a former diplomat, were doing a research study on the economic benefits of diversity, which varied very much from industry to industry—the ethnic composition varied from industry to industry—and we thought it would be an interesting piece of research that could help the government as it developed its policies.

I spoke with a deputy secretary in the PCO and said, “Hey, we're doing this work. Do you think this would be of interest to people?” He said yes, because it touched the work of Industry Canada, Immigration Canada, Canadian Heritage and I forget who else. It was kind of a horizontal issue. People knew me and thought, I guess, that I had credibility, so they were willing to come to a meeting with me.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I have a minute and 45 seconds left.

Let's go back to the question of influence.

I'd like to go back to a question that Madame Martinez Ferrada asked you. The first contact happened in 2014. Is that correct?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Yes, as far as I know.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It was between the then president of the Université de Montréal—

[Morris Rosenberg]

No, the vice-rector at the Université de Montréal.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you for that correction.

I certainly remember 2014 because that was the year I was nominated. We were nominated into a situation where we were polling second, moving on to third—dropping in the polls. If you were a foreign government trying to influence an organization, you'd think they would go after the party that was number one in the polls.

There was no request—as you answered the question—from the donor to influence the study program, to speak out on issues or to avoid speaking out on issues. Can you confirm that was the case, that there were no demands whatsoever?

[Morris Rosenberg]

There were no demands. In fact, one of the other things that's interesting.... There are two articles in Le Devoir that I will provide. One is an interview with Mr. Saint-Jacques and the other is an interview with Mr. Lefebvre. The interview with Mr. Lefebvre said that, absolutely, the Trudeau Foundation wasn't involved from the start. He then says in the article:

The involvement of the organization, which was founded in memory of former Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, even annoyed the Chinese businessman, according to Mr. Lefebvre. “Zhang Bin was not in a very good mood; he wasn't happy that there was another player”...

According to this article, he wasn't very happy about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Fergus. We went over time a bit on that one.

Mr. Villemure, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rosenberg, you have been critical of the fact that no one is talking about your report. We are going to talk a bit about it. I am going to follow up on what my colleague said.

Could you tell me what the difference is between influence and interference?