Information & Ethics Committee on May 3rd, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 69 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, December 7, 2022, the committee resumed its study of foreign interference and threats to the integrity of democratic institutions, intellectual property and the Canadian state.

I would now like to welcome our witness today, Mr. Alexandre Trudeau, a member of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation.

Mr. Trudeau, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Alexandre Trudeau, Member, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have been a volunteer working on behalf of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau foundation for 22 and a half years. My work began in the days that followed Pierre Trudeau's death. In response to all kinds of proposals whose purpose was to mobilize resources in tribute to Pierre Trudeau, I suggested that the man be remembered not for the causes of his death or even his political career, but for his service to intellectual life. If there were to be a monument in honour of Pierre Trudeau, it should be a living legacy that reflects and continues his tireless and varied intellectual work.

At the invitation of the government of the day, I therefore joined a small group of senior officials as a volunteer to come up with ideas for the foundation's programs, which were responding to a pressing need for support in social sciences and humanities research in Canada.

Always as a volunteer, I served as a corporate director and a member of the executive committee of the foundation until September 2020. I also participated in the different committees that selected the four presidents of the foundation.

For more than two decades, I have given everything I possibly could to the foundation and its important mission. One of the greatest privileges of my life has been to serve alongside the many extraordinary Canadians who volunteered in the governance structures of the foundation. Though these volunteers came from very different walks of life and extremely varied ideological backgrounds, everyone shared the belief that rigorous intellectual activity and excellence in academic research are of capital importance for the prosperity and even independence of our country.

Since its creation, the foundation has granted several hundred scholarships to our most brilliant researchers and has given them the tools and training to make their important work more accessible to Canadians at large. The scholars, fellows and mentors that I have had the privilege of getting to know personally have all made me very proud to be Canadian.

Thanks to them, I can state that Canada, in spite of everything, is still a proud bastion of reason in a world that appears increasingly lost every day.

It is precisely as a bastion of reason and tolerance, as perhaps the last refuge even for a universal humanism, that Canada has become the target of foreign interference.

Foreign interference is a serious problem that affects the operations of our institutions and our democracy. Numerous foreign powers would like to have a perfidious influence on the Canadian state.

However, today I must insist that there was no foreign interference, no possibility of interference and no intention or means of interference at or through the Trudeau foundation.

No state or individual ever attempted to influence the Canadian government through the foundation.

Then why are we here today?

It's not a matter of interference, but rather a management crisis caused by serious errors committed by our former president. In her evidence before the committee last week, and in her actions over the past few months, she has raised several questions that could perhaps lead people to believe that there had been attempted interference. Let's analyze these together.

One is that there was an intent to influence the Justin Trudeau government by a donation to the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation; two, that there is a mystery around the identity of the donors or their affiliation; three, that there was something illegitimate about my signing of the donation contract; four, that there were irregularities around the issuance of the charitable receipt;

Five, that the donor gave inappropriate or unusual instructions to the foundation. Six, that some of the board members refused to recuse themselves from an investigation into the donation. Seven, that in the foundation's lawyers' legal opinion, some members of the board were in conflict of interest and changes in governance were required. Eight, that the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation sought to influence Justin Trudeau's government or was in some way linked to it.

The answer to all these questions is resolutely no.

My hope is that we can now take up these questions one by one to carefully shed light on how the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation has not been a part of any foreign interference attempts.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau, for your statement.

You're below time. I appreciate that and I know that the committee does.

Before we begin, I will say for the benefit of the committee that yesterday we had some sidebar discussions happening, and they were impacting the interpreters. If there are any sidebar discussions to be had today, please take them to the extreme back of the room and not near the interpreters. That's all I ask for today.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt.

I just have a quick point of order. We don't have a screen in front of us on this side, and it's a bit harder to see. I don't know if we can fix that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Madam Clerk, would you look after that?

I appreciate that, Ms. Hepfner. Before we begin, we'll make sure we get that corrected.

It's there now. Wonderful.

We're going to begin our first round of questioning. There are six-minute rounds for each party.

We are going to start with Mr. Barrett. Go ahead, sir, for six minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you for coming here today, Mr. Trudeau.

You asked why we're here today, and you listed some reasons. We're here today because The Globe and Mail reported that CSIS had uncovered an influence operation targeting Prime Minister Trudeau through donations to the Trudeau foundation.

You listed a number of questions. I hope I can help afford you the opportunity to answer some of those, but I have limited time. I would appreciate your help in keeping your answers concise.

How many donations did you sign donation agreements for at the Trudeau foundation?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Apart from the times I've donated myself, it was only the single time that was mentioned.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's only once. In 18 years it was just the one time.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

That's correct—in 20 years.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That's exceptional, wouldn't you say?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

The circumstances were such that I needed to sign.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

They were such that you needed to sign. I'm glad that you mentioned that.

Were you involved in the negotiations for other donations?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Let me think...not really. I was, a little bit, for the John MacBain donation, but not in any formal way. Negotiations for donations are sometimes started by governance members, but usually they're taken on by the president of the foundation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay.

We know that Beijing had consular officials who were part of the deal from the beginning, to the extent that they were in meetings with the foundation to arrange this funding. Is that correct?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

I wasn't at any meeting. Maybe there were, on the signing ceremony.

One of the issues that you have to understand is that the donors, Mr. Zhang Bin and Mr. Niu Gensheng, don't speak a word of English. A lot of the time you're thinking that they are using consular officials as basically free and appropriate translation services, as opposed to getting someone who's not trained in that kind of diplomatic translation. These men took their donations seriously.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Was it more than just the signing ceremony?

I ask because we have access to documents that demonstrate that there were consular officials in the meeting with Mr. Rosenberg, and several other people, including the executive director, Ms. Comtois, and that the action coming out from that meeting was that your approval, Mr. Trudeau, was required.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

You understand why: I was giving the approval for the Université de Montréal to use the name of my father. I was acting as a family member to say that the Université de Montréal could use the name of Pierre Trudeau to launch a scholarship program.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The desire of Beijing to get access and influence with a leader of a G7 country is well documented. We know that foreign influence operations are perpetrated on many countries, if not every country. In this case, we saw that the donation by way of these cut-outs—people acting on behalf—as the wiretap information demonstrated, was going to be refunded by the CCP—

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Have you heard the wiretap evidence?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It was reported in The Globe and Mail, sir.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Reports on single sources—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, if I can...?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

My apologies. Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I haven't interrupted Mr. Trudeau and I would ask for the same courtesy.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Barrett is asking questions. At a time that he requires a response, please respond appropriately.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett. I did stop your time. You have two minutes left.