Information & Ethics Committee on May 3rd, 2023

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau, for being here.

I wanted to give you an opportunity to answer some of the questions you raised in your address about these key eight points. I get the feeling that you haven't given certain answers to the committee. You addressed the issue of influence to a some extent. You also explained the matter of the allegation concerning the signing of the donation. However, you didn't say anything about the alleged irregularities around the issuance of the charitable receipt. I wanted to give you a chance to answer that question.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

That's important because this matter of the receipt was central to the testimony of our former president, along with the fact that I had signed it.

The first two payments for the donation came from the same bank account, a legitimate account at the Bank of Montreal for the Millennium Golden Eagle Canada company. As I was explaining, banks are governed by rather strict legislation on money laundering. So when a bank says that an account is legitimate, it means that the company is complying with Canadian standards. As the donations came from the same account, the receipt was issued in the name of that company.

I'm going back to the first question about possible instructions. My understanding of how charitable organizations work is that is that individuals often order or encourage their companies to make donations. That's exactly what happened here. Two members of the same family, Mr. Zhang Bin and his partner, who is his uncle, encouraged a company that is well established in Canada, and conducting legitimate activities, to make a donation. The receipt was issued to that company.

For example if at some point they had given instructions to the China Cultural Industry Association, which is what Mr. Barrett was talking about, I believe it was about translation. As a member of this association, Mr. Zhang had dealings with them to translate important documents and instructions, such as sending a receipt to a company address in China. There's nothing more to it than that.

I would have liked the Auditor General to look at all that, but of course, we're doing it here.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

So you would have liked a proper independent inquiry.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Yes. There is absolutely nothing problematic in this entire matter.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Okay.

I'm going to ask you the same questions I asked other witnesses who were here, about relations between the foundation and the government, or rather with governments generally, because prior to 2015, the current government was not in place.

According to you, is the foundation partisan in any way?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Zero.

When the foundation was established, the officials created three categories of members: members of the family, that is to say three individuals; ordinary members, of which there are 19; and six members for the government. The first and only government to have availed itself of this category of membership was Mr Chrétien's. After that, no other government appointed members or directors. The foundation kept on those who were there at the time. At the moment, there are only two directors left. In other words, the Trudeau government and the Harper government have hardly ever availed themselves of this prerogative made available to them when the foundation was established.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Did you ever speak to your brother about this donation?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

No. However, I spoke to him about the foundation before he went into politics, because he sometimes attended foundation meetings. My brother told me one day that he trusted me in matters pertaining to the foundation. As he had other things to do, he did not get very involved. That was the case even before he wrote his letter saying that, as the leader of the Liberal Party, he would no longer be able to participate in its activities. From the time he became Prime Minister, we have never discussed it.

[Soraya Martinez Ferrada, Liberal, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you think that the situation we are in at the moment, with respect to relations, interference and the geopolitical situation, is why you find yourself here today? These questions had previously been raised in 2016 in some newspaper articles. Why, in your opinion, are you here today?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

We are here today because of a management crisis. We wouldn't be here if the president had not insisted on spreading disinformation to the board. It's true that the geopolitical climate has greatly changed, several times. I understand full well that this committee is responsible for investigating matters considering interference and China. That's why I am appearing before you and doing so in good faith.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau. Thank you, Ms. Martinez Ferrada.

I am now giving the floor to Mr. Villemure for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Two and a half minutes is not very long.

Mr. Trudeau, how would you explain Ms. Fournier's claim that the foundation's annual reports for 2016‑2017 gave conflicting information about the source of the donations?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

I think it's false. I would have to see the annual reports, but it's just not true. With respect to the source of the donations, Ms. Fournier was attempting to interpret the addresses of the company as something abnormal because, I believe, although it was based in Dorval, the owner was a Chinese citizen.

She attempted to raise this point, which is all very well, but it could have been dealt with as part of an independent inquiry. What Ms. Fournier was doing was prejudging the information and using it to attract attention. That's why we came here.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Just to clarify everything, I understand that the use of an independent committee by the board of directors is a common practice in the world of governance. In this instance, however, it was suggested that a further step be taken to show that things were whiter than white, by using a forensic accountant and a law firm. That was turned down by the three remaining members.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

No, not at all, that's what they wanted.

I'd like to submit an account of everything that went on, according to direct witnesses. It will be broken down by the dates for each event and reflect the minutes of everything that happened at the board.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Please do submit it.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

It will clarify a lot of things. From the very outset, the chairperson of the board definitely wanted to set up an independent committee to study the situation and to call upon a firm of lawyers and accountants to conduct an inquiry. We want all the truth to come out properly, because we know that there is nothing wrong.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So there's a contradiction between Ms. Fournier's allegation and your version of things.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

There is a contradiction.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right. We noted that donations to the foundation for the previous year and the following year were around $20,000 or $25,000. So the $200,000 amount represents a significant donation.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

It was $140,000, and wasn't all that huge. Indeed, at one point, the chairperson of the board, John McCall MacBain, had made a donation of $3 million.

It's true that back in 2013, the idea of academic diplomacy was still something of interest for the foundation, as it is in other countries to this day. As soon as my brother became Prime Minister, however, it became problematic for the foundation to get involved in this form of academic diplomacy with China, for a number of reasons that the committee will no doubt understand.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

In 2013, it was already known that China—

[Alexandre Trudeau]

In 2013, academic diplomacy with China was very interesting. Having Chinese researchers come and participate in events at the foundation was promising. The goal was to create ties, and the Université de Montréal had very good contacts with—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Merci, Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Trudeau, you can appreciate the sensitivity. I'm sure you grew up in a lifestyle that would have had a lot of attention, to say the least.

What precautions did the Trudeau foundation take to ensure that there was an appropriate firewall between you and your brother—between the political partisan work and the foundation's work?