Information & Ethics Committee on May 3rd, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The desire for them to run an influence operation was evidenced in that reporting in The Globe and Mail, and within five months of this donation being signed, both gentlemen were given direct access to the Prime Minister.

That's quite a deal for $140,000, I'd say. They were both able to access the Prime Minister.

In the situation around it, we have consular officials from the People's Republic of China directing how the donation is to flow. We have the involvement, for the first and only time in 18 years on the foundation, of the Prime Minister's brother—you, sir—signing that donation agreement. It culminated in those cash-for-access events with Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister. That raises incredibly concerning questions for Canadians.

At the start of my questions, you said you had to sign. Why did you have to sign?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

It was because it was a three-way agreement—four, in many ways—between the foundation; myself, representing the Trudeau family; the Université de Montréal; and the donors.

The main reason I signed is that Morris asked me to. I also had signing authority at the time. I was regularly signing cheques at the foundation.

I imagine I could have given a procuration to Morris to sign for the family, but it was his suggestion for the views of the ceremony and for honouring these men. By the way, I still have no reason to believe their motives were not honourable.

That's why I signed. It was in that capacity as a family member giving the permission to use the name.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Barrett.

Next up, for six minutes, we have Ms. Hepfner. Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, sir, for being here with us today and for answering these questions.

You publicly expressed a desire to appear before this committee to give your input on the issues of foreign interference and the foundation. You said, in fact, that it was “urgent” that you do so. I find it somewhat unusual. We don't typically have people clamouring to come to testify before this committee.

Please explain to us why you thought it was necessary to be here today.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

It was because I felt that the reputation, and most importantly the work, of the scholars.... This foundation is really not about its governance structure, the politics around it or the interpretations that we make. There are a lot of very fine people doing very serious work. They were asking questions.

I had hoped that the Auditor General, perhaps, would look at us with the impartiality and all of the rest, as the chair of our board had requested. I felt that this was a forum in which the truth could be addressed and made clear and doubt cleared up. I thought it was important. I knew I would get the attention that was perhaps necessary to make important corrections to the record.

There was a lot of misinformation from the start, I would argue even in The Global and Mail article. I find journalism on the basis of one single anonymous source to be poor journalism. The facts of that report were problematic since never, at any point, was it questioned that those donors gave a million dollars to the Trudeau foundation.

Why is someone claiming that they were going to be reimbursed? These men, with in their standing in China.... Niu Gensheng, for instance, is well admired for his philanthropy. There are not a lot of huge philanthropists at the level of Niu Gensheng. They're admired in China.

There were a lot of things that I felt needed to be corrected for the good work of the foundation to continue and for all the doubts that are being thrown around about it to stop.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

At the end of the day, as you say, this is an independent, non-partisan charity that gives scholarships to young people. It provides mentorships. It helps them give back to their communities.

I understand that this must be very personal to you, in fact. This is a foundation created in your father's name. It serves to honour his legacy. Maybe you could speak a little bit about the work you've done with the foundation over the past 20-odd years.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Thank you.

As I described, I've been one volunteer among many. I'm by no means more prominent than others. I've served on most of the committees, although perhaps not the finance committee. I've been part of the foundation from its earliest days.

It is really not about us or what is being said; it is really about the work. It's research, and it's not just research; it's helping researchers find new ways to get their work out and help them to understand realms that are outside of the university.

We've heard a lot about meetings with civil servants. That's something the foundation is very proud of. It's one of the reasons we were so excited to bring in a man with the stature of Morris Rosenberg: It was precisely because he offered a window for brilliant Canadian researchers into the functioning of our government—not in a partisan way, not in a partial way and not about any kind of influence, but so that our smartest minds could understand how our government works and how they deal with ideas within the civil service.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You mentioned a couple of points that you felt were inaccurate in media reports about the 2016 donation. Is there anything else you'd like to correct for the record?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Oh, there's a lot. I was going to work through the points.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You have two minutes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Okay.

Well, as I said, these donors, before they came, when they first approached me.... It was the Université de Montréal that approached me. They wanted a donation to them to commemorate Pierre Trudeau as a student there, and as a teacher, frankly. These donors had given the University of Toronto a medical grant of $800,000—or this donor, Zhang Bin, at that point—to commemorate Bethune.

If you know China, especially if you've travelled through China and dealt with elderly Chinese, you'll know that there are two things they'll tell you: “Canada good, Jianádà hao de” and “Bethune, Trudeau”. They'll say that these were people who were friends of China. We're not talking about the Chinese government; we're talking about the people.

So there was no surprise to me, and it was an honour to have someone say, that they wanted to create scholarships for Pierre Trudeau. Again, the pretenses that they had first started with the Université de Montréal, that they were going there and were going to use the Université de Montréal to somehow influence a non-existent Trudeau government that would come....

My first contact was in December of 2013, when a secretary from the law department wrote me about this. It was a long way from any notion of a Trudeau government, even a Trudeau opposition leader.

Again, the idea that there was set-up here I just think is patently false.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I have only 30 seconds left, so just quickly, just to clarify, there was no relationship between your brother's government and the Trudeau foundation.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

There never has been. No. It's an academic institution that does scholarship work.

Of course, there is the relation to the ministry of innovation, as it's now called. As I remember it, it was the industry department when we started. It's a reporting duty, which we do. All of those are available and all the rest, but that's a civil service relationship monitoring the contract that was granted to the foundation at its creation to administer these scholarships, fellowships and mentorships.

That's the relationship. There is no political relationship and there never has been.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Trudeau and Ms. Hepfner.

Mr. Villemure, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Trudeau, thank you for being here.

I'm going to ask brief questions, because my speaking time is limited.

Before getting into the substance of things, I'd like to know whether you were asked to come here today.

[Alexandre Trudeau]

No.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Were you prepared by the Office of the Prime Minister, for example?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

Of course not.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. It's always better to ask. Thank you.

You left the foundation in 2020. Is that right?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

No, I didn't leave the foundation, but rather the executive committee and the board of directors. I'm still a member of the foundation.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right.

Why did you leave the executive committee and the board of directors?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

To be honest, I felt that I needed a break; I had been very active in the foundation for 20 years.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Right.

In your opening address, somewhere around the seventh or eighth point, you mentioned the circumstances described by Ms. Fournier concerning the departure of members of the board of directors. You were no longer there at the time, were you?

[Alexandre Trudeau]

No, I wasn't.