Information & Ethics Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Edward Johnson]

I'm chair of the board. I cannot and must not be involved in every detail of—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You have a fiduciary duty as chair of the board.

[Edward Johnson]

Right.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's why you have errors and omissions insurance, to ensure that you're not put in a legal.... You're a lawyer. I can't accept at face value that you don't see why this would be a problem.

[Edward Johnson]

I believe I can rely on assurances from others more closely involved as to what has been done and whether what has been done is proper.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Your job is to respond to it.

Ms. Fournier brings allegations.

The last question I have for you regards the concerns that she has purported to this committee that she brought to you directly at the board meeting. What was your course of action after that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Give a very quick response, please.

[Edward Johnson]

It was very much to do our best to establish an independent outside review of the entire matter and all the circumstances around it.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It hasn't begun yet.

[Edward Johnson]

No, it would have been.... I would say that it's well under way—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Green, I have to stay on time here.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, Mr. Johnson. You said that the foundation has never been influenced by the Beijing regime, correct?

[Edward Johnson]

Right, to the best of my knowledge.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

All right. You took the time to clarify that.

In your view, does this $140,000 donation, which has since been repaid by the foundation and which, according to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, had been reimbursed to the donor by the Beijing regime, constitute a prima facie case of attempted interference by the Beijing regime?

[Edward Johnson]

If the allegations were correct, then there would be an arguable case that it was an attempt at influence—if they are correct.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You never questioned the facts.

[Edward Johnson]

You can't question them; this is an article that quotes someone quoting a conversation that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service allegedly recorded.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

We saw that a diplomat from the Beijing regime was expelled from Canada, according to the same sources.

According to his own words, it seems that Mr. Rosenberg was naive to foreign interference and this gift from the Beijing regime. For his part, Mr. Alexandre Trudeau said that he had no reason to suspect an interference attempt by the Beijing regime. Do you side with the Rosenberg camp or the Trudeau camp?

[Edward Johnson]

It's neither one nor the other, because I have my own point of view. As I told you, as far as I know, there was no attempt to influence the foundation.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So, you say there was no attempt to influence the foundation. Do you understand that the regime in Beijing has no interest in trying to influence the foundation, but rather has an interest in influencing Mr. Trudeau's government?

[Edward Johnson]

I cannot comment...

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You say that Beijing did not try to influence the foundation, and I understand that the foundation was not the target. However, Mr. Johnson, can you at least admit that the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, which is named after a former prime minister, one of whose sons, Alexandre, is an active member and whose other son, as everyone knows, is Prime Minister of Canada, can be an interesting target for an authoritarian regime like Beijing or anyone else who wants to exert influence?

[Edward Johnson]

I really can't comment on that. I don't—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You've worked for several Liberal ministers in your career, haven't you?

[Edward Johnson]

Yes.