Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Your website is indeed full of information, but users have to know they need to visit the website to find this out.

[Pamela Snively]

That's correct. As I said earlier, though, we did a lot of op-eds. We did media releases. We were very publicly transparent.

I recognize that some individuals want to know everything that's going on with their data, while some don't want to know anything and some want to know just in time, when they are thinking about it. That is why we take it very seriously to put all of this information on our website. For those to whom it matters and who want to know everything, it's there. For those who might just think about it from to time, it's there when they are ready to take a look at it.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay, thank you.

I will use a broad image to ask my next question, which will concern data exploitation in general.

The translation of human experience into behavioural data is what is called surveillance capitalism, which aims to influence and change behaviours. Of course, the source of surveillance capitalism is all the data, yours as well as other data.

What you think about data exploitation for those purposes?

[Pamela Snively]

I'm not positive.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I'm not sure I understand the question.

What do I think about using data for surveillance capitalists? Is that the question?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Yes.

[Pamela Snively]

I'm aware that data can be used for good and I'm aware that it can be used in ways that are not good as well. It's absolutely, critically important that we're paying attention to how data is used, that we make inquiries, and that we are responsible in our use of data and are transparent about it. That is exactly the model we have followed at Telus.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay. I have no further questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

With that, we move one minute ahead of schedule.

I will move now to Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to put to our witness that I'm going to ask questions in what might feel like a rapid-fire way. I'm going to ask you to be as concise as you can with your answers so that for the good and welfare of this study, I can move on to the next question. If I happen to interrupt, please don't take it as being abrupt; I have a limited amount of time.

I will begin, through you, Mr. Chair, with asking the witness if the sale of the collected data is a core part of Telus's business model.

[Pamela Snively]

What we're talking about here today is the Data for Good program, which is—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

If I could, Mr. Chair, I'm going to direct the question. I'm going to ask very specific questions and I'm going to require very specific answers.

Is the sale of collected data a core part of Telus's business model?

[Pamela Snively]

I think I need to be clear about what the exact question is. If we're talking about the Data for Good program, there is no sale involved at all. It's almost exclusively done for free, or at most on a cost recovery basis.

If you're talking about other types of data, just broadly, and whether they are a core part of our business model, I would have to say no.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

If no, should not a separate form of consent then be required? That is, if a consumer signs up with Telus under the understanding that the core part of the business model is not collecting data and its distribution, should that collection not, under an ethical framework, require a separate form of consent?

[Pamela Snively]

If we were selling customers' personal information, it would require a separate and very expressed consent. We are not selling customers' personal information. We're not sharing customers' personal information. We're sharing insights drawn from de-identified data points drawn off of our cellular network, the number of pings, so that we can map population movements on a large scale to help with the pandemic. This isn't the sale of customers' personal information.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, respectfully, when it's qualified as customers' personal information and the idea of what's disaggregated and not disaggregated.... Again, with the constant emphasis of what consent looks like under current legislation, I would put to this committee that the legislation is currently the problem.

My next question would be whether Telus is only collecting the mobility data of its clients, or does it collect information of other telecom clients who end up pinging its infrastructure?

[Pamela Snively]

For our Data for Good program and Insights model, we are only using the data of our customers.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What about for other programs within Telus?

[Pamela Snively]

I'm not aware of another program that is using data in this way.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

It is my understanding that when Telus purchased Babylon Health in the U.K., Babylon operated under an opt-in consent premise, but after the purchase of the app, it was moved to an opt-out consent process. In fact, the Alberta privacy commissioner found that Babylon had not met the requirements of section 7 of the personal information and privacy act with respect to obtaining consent for collection, use and disclosure of personal information unless otherwise authorized.

Why does Telus default to opt-out option for data collection?

[Pamela Snively]

I'm not sure where that information has come from, but Telus has not moved in the.... When we acquired Babylon in January of 2021, we made changes that brought the program under our privacy program, but we did not move anything from opt-in to opt-out. That was not a change that Telus made.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Should there be a different standard of consent, for meaningful consent, when it comes to data collection that you share with governments or sell to third parties?

[Pamela Snively]

If we're talking about personal information, absolutely. If we're talking about de-identified information, there's still knowledge and transparency to encourage customer trust and to earn it, but there's no requirement for consent. In fact, it's probably a little bit unrealistic in most of these contexts. What we heard from Dr. Teresa Scassa and what we heard from the Privacy Commissioner was that in the context of de-identified data, consent is really not realistic and it's not terribly helpful.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Through you, Mr. Chair, can the witness here today representing Telus state whether or not they're currently collecting mobility data from Koodo and Public Mobile subscribers for the Data for Good program as well?

[Pamela Snively]

Yes, we are.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How aware are the clients of these other brands that their data is being collected as well and used in this way?