Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to transition a bit, if I could. You referenced a number of times that Telus had spoken with the Privacy Commissioner. I'm wondering if you received an opinion from the Privacy Commissioner on the Telus Data for Good program. Was it just a discussion? Can you outline exactly what that interaction was?

[Pamela Snively]

Thank you for the question.

Prior to launching Data for Good, as I indicated earlier, we designed our five commitments around the sharing of data and protecting privacy. We were trying to anticipate what our customers would be most concerned about if they were to hear about this and we were trying to address those concerns.

It was very much part of our transparency plan to publish these five commitments, as well as a description of the program and along with FAQs. We took the description of the program and the five commitments and sent those to the Privacy Commissioner. We asked for feedback on those, which they provided, and we incorporated that feedback.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I find it ironic that it appears that Telus went through more steps to protect its users' privacy than the Public Health Agency of Canada did, certainly in reference to the testimony that we received earlier.

When it comes to what the Public Health Agency of Canada did, were there frameworks or restrictions that would have ensured that this data was siloed or had a certain restricted level of use that wouldn't have gone beyond PHAC? Was there anything to ensure that queries and information that were sent to PHAC had to be managed carefully? When the data leaves Telus, what assurances were there that it wouldn't be shared with other agencies and departments of government, for example?

[Pamela Snively]

It's very important to reiterate that these were not actual data sets that were provided to PHAC. We're talking about heat maps and derived data, so there were—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I understand that.

As the Public Health Agency of Canada was using your platform, dashboard and whatnot, were there assurances and requirements that PHAC would be the only agency allowed to use that, or were they given permission to share it more broadly?

[Pamela Snively]

They were given permission to use it in accordance with the purposes of containing COVID. We were aware that they would be sharing it more broadly, sharing it wherever it could be used to serve that particular purpose, which was the containment of COVID-19 and to help fight the pandemic. That was the social purpose behind the program; if it was consistent with that social purpose, sharing was permissible.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

With that in mind, I'm very curious as we look forward. There has been an RFP put out by the government asking for data related to the fight against COVID-19, but it also requested data for purposes beyond that. We've heard some testimony about what some of the challenges are around that, and this committee unanimously asked for there to be a pause on it until we have a better understanding as to what those are.

Are you aware of that RFP, and do you have any comments on it?

[Pamela Snively]

I've heard about the RFP. I don't have any comments on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

With that, you're out of time.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

We'll go to Ms. Saks for the final five minutes.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

It's been a long but very informative afternoon, and I want to thank our witness again for her very detailed explanation of the steps, processes, supervision and thought that went into constructing the Data for Good platform and its uses.

Telus's Data for Good platform is not only used by PHAC; it's used by university researchers. It's almost like a library, in some ways, with a lot of supervision and guardrails. Would you agree?

[Pamela Snively]

It's with a lot of guardrails and supervision, yes. The idea is to support evidence-based decisions.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Absolutely.

I'll phrase it this way. From its inception, you took a very deliberate approach in designing the Data for Good platform. In the end, you won awards and you've received accolades from Dr. Ann Cavoukian.

Could you talk about the guidelines or metrics that you used? In his testimony, the commissioner talked about frameworks that he outlined in relation to the COVID Alert app. I'm not sure if they are public or not public. Based on your previous comments, I'm not sure they are.

We talked about privacy by design, but were there other frameworks, either from the Privacy Commissioner or the Ontario privacy commissioner, that helped guide and structure the process for design and how you use it now?

[Pamela Snively]

In terms of specific frameworks, as I said earlier, we did work with experts from across the country as well as even outside the country to look at the best strategies and techniques for strong de-identification.

There are a number of different strategies to approach de-identification. We employed more than one and took a bit of a belt-and-suspenders approach, but is there an actual standard of taking these 25 steps and you will have de-identified data? That doesn't exist. It is contextual, and it's more complex than that.

We have worked with all the leading experts on how to develop frameworks that are as robust as possible.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to be sharing my time with my colleague Ms. Khalid, so I will pass the floor to her.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks very much.

How many minutes do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

You have a little over two minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much for your testimony and for answering our questions. It's much appreciated.

We have been asking a lot of questions around informed consent for the use of Canadians' data. Perhaps I want to take a step back and put it into more layman's terms that Canadians can understand.

Let's say, for example, that somebody signs a petition that is being circulated by an MP who is running to be the leader of a party. Would that MP need informed consent to then later use that data for other purposes, as opposed to just the reason this person signed that petition? If that data was used for other matters, for data mining or what have you, would there be an obligation on that organization to seek that informed consent, do you think?

[Pamela Snively]

I think that's a really interesting question. It's a great question, because the analogy might be to say that there are 3,000 people who signed the petition to support a particular MP, and the MP makes the conclusion that 3,000 people in the country support him or her. That conclusion is the type of insight we're talking about.

If the MP goes says, “I have 3,000 people supporting me, and that's why I think I should be able to do this, raise this much money or do these other things” and if that's not what their original intention was when they signed up and they were just signing it for some other reason, then we're in the same boat.

Clearly that's not the idea here. We're talking about aggregated concepts, of patterns and trends, and nobody would expect that the MP would go back and get consent from everyone for every conversation that he or she has about that 3,000 number.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you so much for that.

Do you have any recommendations with respect to strengthening government policy on how companies, private or public, collect, store and use data? I mean specifically with respect to informed consent and how the framework is in our government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

We're going to have to wrap it up. You are over time now.

We'll have a quick comment or response from the witness, and then we're going to have to wrap it up.

[Pamela Snively]

We have been actively participating in any consultations that the government has been holding on how best to improve our privacy legislation, so I will leave it at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you very much. That will conclude panel two.

There were several questions that require written responses, and I think there was an undertaking from the witness to provide that in some cases. If you are able to do so, please do so as soon as possible.

With that, this meeting is adjourned.