Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm excited to be part of the committee. I'm looking forward to working across all party lines and hopefully doing it transparently and out in the open.

I do want to give notice of a motion for the consideration of committee:

That the committee immediately undertake a study of at least four meetings on the leak and misuse of personal data from crowd fundraising websites, and how the Canadian government can work to reduce these risks in the future; and that the first witness invited before the committee be the Privacy Commissioner of Canada.

I put that on notice.

I appreciate both Dr. Geist and Mr. Charbonneau for their comments today. I am very concerned about how data has been collected and how it could violate Canadians' privacy. The lack of transparency from the government and the concerns that have been raised by the Privacy Commissioner are troubling to all of us.

Dr. Geist, I read an article that you wrote in March 2020, at the very beginning of COVID. You also had a Globe and Mail op-ed. You mention standards and practices. You're talking today about the EU. You're also talking about how Israel and Taiwan are better at having those guardrails and transparency. Really, it comes down to the matter of trust, as Mr. Charbonneau was saying.

Do you believe there are enough guardrails in place, especially when you take a look at how long this data should be allowed to be held by organizations like BlueDot or by the Public Health Agency of Canada? I know you suggested in the past something like 14 days. Do we believe the government, through PHAC and BlueDot, is holding that information only for 14 days and then getting rid of it? Are they doing their analysis and moving on to help inform public information and public policy?

More importantly, how do we ensure that regulatory boundaries are in place that will, at the end of the day, protect the privacy of Canadians?

[Dr. Michael Geist]

Thanks for the question.

Thanks for bringing back some of the early stuff that was written at those very early stages of COVID. I think in some ways that really does highlight how essential it is to get the frameworks right to have the kind of transparency and the guardrails that we're talking about.

The last couple of years have been demonstrative of the need for both data and public active participation in different things. COVID Alert was a good example of that as well.

You can only get there if there is public trust in those collecting the data, in how it will be used and in the oversight that is in place. I think, respectfully, that we still fall short in that regard. The commissioner has raised these kinds of concerns. I don't think anyone is going to credibly try to question the commissioner when he raises these kinds of issues. That strikes me as a source of concern.

In terms of how long data is retained, that's a benchmark issue that exists within all modern privacy laws. One only retains data for as long as strictly necessary. If we're talking about specific trends data where we're trying to respond rapidly based on emerging trends, I would suggest that there is little reason to retain that data for lengthy periods of time once the value of it for that particular trend may have passed.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Charbonneau, go ahead.

[Jean-Pierre Charbonneau]

I am no expert in legislative drafting for the federal government, but I feel that the principle remains the same, that there should be a oversight mechanism. Earlier, we talked about improving the Privacy Act, but we already have an act and we are not complying with it. We also have an institution in place and it was ignored.

It is all very well to want to improve the act and strengthen the control and oversight mechanisms, but the challenge is to respect the institution that is already in place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Mr. Charbonneau.

For the last four minutes, we have Ms. Hepfner.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Geist, I would like to go back to the line of questioning that my colleague, Ya'ara Saks, was examining. I don't think we heard a fulsome answer from you.

We were talking about transparency. You were saying that the government could have been more transparent with the rollout of this program. We heard that there was a news conference at the time when the program was started. There were regular communications from Theresa Tam on social media. As a journalist at the time, I was aware that the government was using mobility data to track whether pandemic measures were being followed and whether any outbreaks were likely to happen. I was aware that this information was being collected.

I would like to hear actual input from you on how the government could have been more transparent. Do we send a text message to everyone's cellphone? If there's a news conference, it's covered in the media. It's going out on social media every couple of weeks and there's a website you can refer to, so you can see how this information is being used.

How do we get more transparency into this process?

[Dr. Michael Geist]

I think that the—

[Jean-Pierre Charbonneau]

You could have more transparency…I don't know who that question was for.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you—

[Jean-Pierre Charbonneau]

You could have more transparency by—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I was asking Mr. Geist.

Thank you.

[Jean-Pierre Charbonneau]

Ah, okay.

[Dr. Michael Geist]

Thanks for that.

I'll respond by saying that I do think.... I mean, you're highlighting a number of different things. I would say that COVID Alert does provide you with a better example of ad campaigns, of multiple ways of trying to advertise and communicate so that people are aware of what's taking place. To the extent to which we are accepting that there's some form of consent here, it is informed.

I think the COVIDTrends site could have made and still could make it clear where the mobility data is coming from, so that those Canadians who might be affected by it would know that's the case. I think the COVIDTrends website could include a link specifically to Telus's site, so that people who want to opt out of the Data for Good program would be in a position to do so. I think that they similarly could include a link to BlueDot to allow them to opt out of that.

If you have informed consent, it's about ensuring both: that people understand what is being asked of them or, more particularly, how their data is being used, and giving them the information they need to be able to opt out if they see fit. That, to me, is how you go about trying to ensure a high standard with respect to fostering public trust and complying with people's privacy expectations.

You can say, “Well, listen, we did this, this and this, and we were compliant with the law.” I thought I opened by indicating that this was, in my view, compliant with the law, but I think we'll come back to Mr. Charbonneau's point that compliance with the law doesn't always foster trust.

We want to ensure that we have trust, because this is important information, and these are the kinds of programs that can be critically important. Simply ensuring that we ticked the right boxes without necessarily going that extra mile to give people the kind of information they need to make informed choices and to be able to opt out, which are things that could be done.... To me, that would have been a better approach.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Just so we're clear, people did have....

Am I out of time? I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Just ask a quick question. We have 30 seconds left.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

How can we get better-informed consent from people using their cellphones and using these programs without jeopardizing the public health data that we need to...? Do you know what I'm saying?

How do we get proper informed consent so that people know what they're doing? You can opt out of these programs, but how do we get more awareness so that people can be more informed about it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Okay. With that, you've gone over your 30 seconds in asking your question.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm going to invite our panellists, if they have further contributions that they would like to make to the study in answer to that question or any other, to do so in writing. They are welcome to do so.

With that, we are out of time for this panel.

I thank our two witnesses.

We are going to move into the subcommittee. Those members of this committee who are not members of the subcommittee can leave the Zoom call or the room. The subcommittee is in camera, so we will clear the room.

With that, this meeting is adjourned.